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Old 06-04-2016, 11:11 AM
Status: "No longer very optimistic." (set 19 days ago)
 
Location: Coastal Georgia
41,183 posts, read 50,967,054 times
Reputation: 71216

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaving4Ca View Post
Really? spa-like?

How many colonscopies have YOU had? The prep is horrific and leaves you exhausted and drained. Electrolytes totally depleted and that might harm a 77 year old!!!
You have the wrong doctor then. I think I've had 4, in two different states. The prep is not horrific. It is inconvenient. The procedure itself consists of soft music, warmed blankets and a shot to lala land. I think the procedure is far more unpleasant for the doctor than it is the patient.
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Old 06-04-2016, 11:34 AM
 
Location: NE Mississippi
18,671 posts, read 10,988,876 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stockyman View Post
Basically my mother is turning 77 this year and has no history with colon cancer in the family. However in the most recent physical where she had to give a stool sample there was a hint of blood, which led my family doctor to recommend a specialist who made an appointment to do a colonoscopy this month. I suspect there was blood because my mother suffers from constipation and prior to giving the stool sample she forced herself to go which caused her to bleed quite a bit. After that though, there's been no blood whatsoever.

The problem is my mother's mental and physical health has declined late last year and if this scheduled colonoscopy had occurred before all her other problems she would not have hesitated to do this procedure. She's not sure if she can fast the day before and does not want to take the prescriptions to make her empty out her colon. She finds the procedure too difficult because of her current health. She does not want her to go but the doctor and specialist want her in cause there's a health problem.

Should I force her to go or let her cancel? I'm worried on the day of the procedure she will flat out cancel. She's mentioned that she might. On the one hand I don't really think she has any type of colon cancer but I'd hate myself if there was an actual problem that the colonoscopy could find.

She's an adult but my mother and her reasoning is not 100% logical at the moment. Not sure what I should do. I've read that colonoscopies can be hard on very elderly people and useless after age 75.

What should I do?
Nah.

Have her take the Cologuard test. You do it at home and submit the sample. They test the sample for cancer.
Talk To Your Doctor About Cologuard
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Old 06-04-2016, 12:26 PM
 
9,241 posts, read 4,525,676 times
Reputation: 23472
Unless you are her designated Health Conservator, you have no say in her Health exams. None ,Zip , nada!

Would it behoove you both to be adults and sit and discuss the pros and cons of this procedure at this time in her life? Probably. Consider it an opportunity that should the time come where you have to make choices in her health care, that her wishes be honored.

A Diabetic, Kidney failure patient probably isn't going to fair well with a prep of this nature. I know, since a family member endured this ...and it did NOT go well during the 24 hour regime prior.
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Old 06-04-2016, 02:11 PM
 
3,092 posts, read 1,923,254 times
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If she thoroughly understands the benefits of colonoscopy and still doesn't want it, it's her choice. If she truly isn't capable of making decisions, then you'd have to get legal guardianship of her to force her to do it.

Her body, her choice otherwise.
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Old 06-04-2016, 02:25 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
30,486 posts, read 32,885,191 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JanND View Post
I read there are at home tests, check with Dr.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Listener2307 View Post
Nah.Have her take the Cologuard test. You do it at home and submit the sample. They test the sample for cancer.
The FIT test checks for blood. A negative FIT test would be useless, since the OP's mom has already had bleeding and a positive stool test for blood.

The Cologuard is not intended to be used in someone known to have bleeding, either.

Both of those are screening tests to be used in someone with no symptoms. The OP's mom needs a diagnosis, not more screening.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chiluvr1228 View Post
This is how I feel also. My stepfather died from complications of a colonoscopy when his bowel was punctured. Plus there have been many warnings about people getting infections from the equipment they use which is impossible to sterilize and is used over and over again.

I'm 61, have never had one and never will. It's just another money maker for the doctors. Older people seem to get constipated a lot which would account for the slight blood in the stool. If there is no history of colon cancer in your family then leave her alone to make her own decision.
Constipation does not commonly cause bleeding. There is no way to know what is causing the bleeding without further diagnostic testing. The people who have had potentially cancerous polyps removed hardly consider the procedure "just a money maker." Treating a colon cancer is going to cost you a bunch more than having a polyp removed will.

I am sorry about your step-father, but millions of people have colonoscopies with no complications and have colon cancer prevented by having polyps removed.

What you want is a gastroenterologist who does the procedure every day and a center that uses strict processing procedures to clean the scopes.

ENDORA® Endoscope Tracking System | Medivators

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaving4Ca View Post
I learned the hard way that doctors are test happy with older folks, they see $$$ signs of easy billing.

At 91 my wonderful Mom had fallen and we had her in the hospital for a few days. They found some internal bleeding and could not locate the source, so they insisted on a very painful bone marrow test for cancer.... Cancer is not in my family ANYWHERE. :-(

The next year, my poor lovely sweet Mom was 92, she had constipation, and the dr. insisted on an MRI. WTH !!!! The MRI techs hurt her (I went after the doctor, the facility and the techs but to no avail) and she was never the same, in constant pain, she passed about 2 months later. All we needed was a laxative.

Nope, please do NOT force your Mom if she does not want to. OMG the prep alone is grueling for anyone, much less someone at 77.

The doctors just want the fees from the procedure. Period. Especially if there is no cancer.
The doctors would not suggest an examination of the bone marrow without an indication to do it, and many people with cancer have no family history of it. Not all cancers are heritable; many happen by what appears to be chance. An MRI would not be ordered just because of constipation, so I suspect there were additional signs or symptoms that caused concern. I find it difficult to understand how an MRI harms someone and causes "constant pain". MRIs do not hurt, though some people find it hard to be in the machine because of claustrophobia - and there are open machines that help with that.

I am tired of the mantra that docs "just want the fees" from the procedure. Apart from a few rogues, the vast, vast majority of physicians just want to help their patients. If a test is negative, that does not mean there was no indication to do it. No one of any age should have a test done without understanding why it is being done, and if nothing will be done if the test finds a problem, do not do the test.

It sounds to me like you and your mother's doctors did not communicate very well and you do not understand the reasons for the tests she had done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by germaine2626 View Post
My husband had colon cancer a number of years ago. It was not discovered until his colon was completely blocked and he nearly died. His surgeon said that the tumor that was blocking his colon could easily have been discovered & removed if he had a colonoscopy at any time in the previous ten years.
Obstruction is the situation that OP's mom needs to understand can happen if she has cancer. As you well know, it's a horrendous experience. If she has a cancer and gets obstructed, she will either have to have surgery or die in agony. She may just have hemorrhoids and constipation, but there is no way to know that without further testing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gentlearts View Post
I think the procedure is far more unpleasant for the doctor than it is the patient.
I don't know about that. My dad had a colonoscopy many years ago and the GI doc sent him a copy of the report. The first sentence said, "This man has a beautiful colon."
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Old 06-04-2016, 02:58 PM
 
3,661 posts, read 1,590,107 times
Reputation: 7316
Don't force Mom to get the test, rather help her alleviate the constipation by introducing more fiber in her diet. Encourage her to move around more and eat bran flakes at breakfast. To get things started perhaps some Metamucil to get her bowels moving at least once daily.
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Old 06-04-2016, 03:32 PM
 
10,604 posts, read 15,576,665 times
Reputation: 17263
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
The FIT test checks for blood. A negative FIT test would be useless, since the OP's mom has already had bleeding and a positive stool test for blood.

The Cologuard is not intended to be used in someone known to have bleeding, either.

Both of those are screening tests to be used in someone with no symptoms. The OP's mom needs a diagnosis, not more screening.


Constipation does not commonly cause bleeding. There is no way to know what is causing the bleeding without further diagnostic testing. The people who have had potentially cancerous polyps removed hardly consider the procedure "just a money maker." Treating a colon cancer is going to cost you a bunch more than having a polyp removed will.

I am sorry about your step-father, but millions of people have colonoscopies with no complications and have colon cancer prevented by having polyps removed.

What you want is a gastroenterologist who does the procedure every day and a center that uses strict processing procedures to clean the scopes.

ENDORA® Endoscope Tracking System | Medivators



The doctors would not suggest an examination of the bone marrow without an indication to do it, and many people with cancer have no family history of it.
Not all cancers are heritable; many happen by what appears to be chance. An MRI would not be ordered just because of constipation, so I suspect there were additional signs or symptoms that caused concern. I find it difficult to understand how an MRI harms someone and causes "constant pain". MRIs do not hurt, though some people find it hard to be in the machine because of claustrophobia - and there are open machines that help with that.

I am tired of the mantra that docs "just want the fees" from the procedure
. Apart from a few rogues, the vast, vast majority of physicians just want to help their patients. If a test is negative, that does not mean there was no indication to do it. No one of any age should have a test done without understanding why it is being done, and if nothing will be done if the test finds a problem, do not do the test.

It sounds to me like you and your mother's doctors did not communicate very well and you do not understand the reasons for the tests she had done.



Obstruction is the situation that OP's mom needs to understand can happen if she has cancer. As you well know, it's a horrendous experience. If she has a cancer and gets obstructed, she will either have to have surgery or die in agony. She may just have hemorrhoids and constipation, but there is no way to know that without further testing.



I don't know about that. My dad had a colonoscopy many years ago and the GI doc sent him a copy of the report. The first sentence said, "This man has a beautiful colon."
OK BUT do you REALLY seriously believe that this particular frail 92 year old women needed a painful bone marrow test to dx cancer? THEN WHAT? CHEMO?

You're too close to the industry. The definition of "help their patients" is very subjective. Sometimes they want to play tweaker. Especially if they're young or a student/resident. I will NEVER see a resident.

LIke the dope who wanted to give me a breathing analysis test when I was there for LYME because I checked of "smoking" on my paperwork. (a resident filling in for my long term fantastic doctor). After I laughed at him and said ADDRESS WHY I"m HERE, He THEN proceeded to TOUCH my weepy sore behind my knee with NO GLOVE. THEN he prescribed the wrong antibiotic. TWICE. Which gave me the worst GI symptoms and dual ear infections. THEN he prescribed the wrong ear a/b. So I was out of work an entire MONTH just because of how my LYME titer came back and some kid not knowing what he was doing with no supervision.

You should KNOW and admit, IMO, that medicine is being done by "rote" now, not by communicating with the patient and family. OBVIOUSLY the doc didn't communicate well, why blame the pt?

Like when you take your dog to Petsmart vets, the computer spits out a list of tx for rule ins and the doc just prescribes it all.

Veterinarians get the same unfair accusations and like human medicine there are good and bad docs, morons and non-morons, thinkers and non-thinkers. Intellectual curiosity and not.

I'll never forget when I went to U of P dental clinic at the school, I really learned about defensive medicine when the Instructor told the student learning how to take a history: "Make sure you check off 'Patient denies' every single one of these boxes while you're asking her the questions even if she is unclear about it." Right in front of me.

Then another student proceeded to buff the enamel off my front tooth by using the wrong tool right in front of the Instructor gazing out the window not paying attention.

I won't even go INTO how the medical profession killed my mother by allowing her off her blood thinners 3 mos after a 5 graft bypass - to have a TEENY TINY cancerous breast lump removed that the best breast doctor in Philly said was a NON ISSUE at her age if she took Tamoxifen. This was in 1999 and he had ALREADY stopped taking insurance because of the disaster going on. Funny he thought THAT was bad? But NO all she said was "he sent me home to die".

Or how a female general surgeon the hospital sent up unauthorized after they got the test back...wanted to chop off that potentially bloody breast DURING A HEART BYPASS and had to be kicked out of her room and fired by me and the heart surgeon. He said "ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND? YOU"RE NOT GETTING BLOODY BREAST TISSUE ALL OVER MY HEART INCISION". And he was a quiet INDIAN guy not a loud mouth Philly guy.

Or how her endocrinologist never would return calls even though she'd be in a ton of diabetic comas and then finally call me from the backyard pool yelling at his kids about splashing and hot dogs.

I have so many stories between my mother, my dog with Megaesophagus, and my dog walking clients it'd choke a message board.

It's funny when my SO almost died in a motorcycle accident and was in the ER, ICU for 3 months etc he got better treatment than anybody I ever knew. (other than leaving him in wet beds after a sweat attack after morphine). WHY? It was sexy. Interesting. Halo, vent, then trache, broke every bone in his body from the waist up, had to be put in a coma for hiccups because of a shattered sternum...etc etc etc...He was cute. And his biker friends were always there standing guard LOL and the hospital thought he was some celebrity ha ha.

I WILL admit the GI I had for my mother after she had an IMMEDIATE paralyzing STROKE from going off the Cumadin, was EXCELLENT. He cautioned me "NEVER EVER put a feeding tube, you'll never remove it and she'll suffer for a year then die a skeleton. Better you blow off the guilt and let her die a natural death now, like I wish I had done for my father."

I didn't follow his advise, had the tube placed and she died exactly a year later at 60 lbs. after a disgusting painful year in a sh@#y SNF. Where they were THRILLED she "refused" to do anything (I don't know how since she couldn't talk and was half paralyzed), dirty and usually laying in feces and urine.

Our new country is gonna be GREAT!

Last edited by runswithscissors; 06-04-2016 at 04:00 PM..
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Old 06-04-2016, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
30,486 posts, read 32,885,191 times
Reputation: 37724
Quote:
Originally Posted by runswithscissors View Post
OK BUT do you REALLY seriously believe that this particular frail 92 year old women needed a painful bone marrow test to dx cancer? THEN WHAT? CHEMO?

You're too close to the industry. The definition of "help their patients" is very subjective. Sometimes they want to play tweaker. Especially if they're young or a student/resident. I will NEVER see a resident.

LIke the dope who wanted to give me a breathing analysis test when I was there for LYME because I checked of "smoking" on my paperwork. (a resident filling in for my long term fantastic doctor). After I laughed at him and said ADDRESS WHY I"m HERE, He THEN proceeded to TOUCH my weepy sore behind my knee with NO GLOVE. THEN he prescribed the wrong antibiotic. TWICE. Which gave me the worst GI symptoms and dual ear infections. THEN he prescribed the wrong ear a/b. So I was out of work an entire MONTH just because of how my LYME titer came back and some kid not knowing what he was doing with no supervision.

You should KNOW and admit, IMO, that medicine is being done by "rote" now, not by communicating with the patient and family. OBVIOUSLY the doc didn't communicate well, why blame the pt?

Like when you take your dog to Petsmart vets, the computer spits out a list of tx for rule ins and the doc just prescribes it all.

Veterinarians get the same unfair accusations and like human medicine there are good and bad docs, morons and non-morons, thinkers and non-thinkers. Intellectual curiosity and not.

I'll never forget when I went to U of P dental clinic at the school, I really learned about defensive medicine when the Instructor told the student learning how to take a history: "Make sure you check off 'Patient denies' every single one of these boxes while you're asking her the questions even if she is unclear about it." Right in front of me.

Then another student proceeded to buff the enamel off my front tooth by using the wrong tool right in front of the Instructor gazing out the window not paying attention.

I won't even go INTO how the medical profession killed my mother by allowing her off her blood thinners 3 mos after a 5 graft bypass - to have a TEENY TINY cancerous breast lump removed that the best breast doctor in Philly said was a NON ISSUE at her age if she took Tamoxifen. This was in 1999 and he had ALREADY stopped taking insurance because of the disaster going on. Funny he thought THAT was bad? But NO all she said was "he sent me home to die".

Or how a female general surgeon the hospital sent up unauthorized after they got the test back...wanted to chop off that potentially bloody breast DURING A HEART BYPASS and had to be kicked out of her room and fired by me and the heart surgeon. He said "ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND? YOU"RE NOT GETTING BLOODY BREAST TISSUE ALL OVER MY HEART INCISION". And he was a quiet INDIAN guy not a loud mouth Philly guy.

Or how her endocrinologist never would return calls even though she'd be in a ton of diabetic comas and then finally call me from the backyard pool yelling at his kids about splashing and hot dogs.

I have so many stories between my mother, my dog with Megaesophagus, and my dog walking clients it'd choke a message board.

It's funny when my SO almost died in a motorcycle accident and was in the ER, ICU for 3 months etc he got better treatment than anybody I ever knew. (other than leaving him in wet beds after a sweat attack after morphine). WHY? It was sexy. Interesting. Halo, vent, then trache, broke every bone in his body from the waist up, had to be put in a coma for hiccups because of a shattered sternum...etc etc etc...He was cute. And his biker friends were always there standing guard LOL and the hospital thought he was some celebrity ha ha.

I WILL admit the GI I had for my mother after she had an IMMEDIATE paralyzing STROKE from going off the Cumadin, was EXCELLENT. He cautioned me "NEVER EVER put a feeding tube, you'll never remove it and she'll suffer for a year then die a skeleton. Better you blow off the guilt and let her die a natural death now, like I wish I had done for my father."

I didn't follow his advise, had the tube placed and she died exactly a year later at 60 lbs. after a disgusting painful year in a sh@#y SNF. Where they were THRILLED she "refused" to do anything (I don't know how since she couldn't talk and was half paralyzed), dirty and usually laying in feces and urine.

Our new country is gonna be GREAT!
When someone has so many medical horror stories to tell, I still have to wonder about the communication between the doctors and the patient or his family. This post supports that view.

Why did you choose to go to the dental school rather than a private dentist? By definition you will be seeing someone with not much experience.

The bone marrow test was to make a diagnosis. With diagnosis in hand, then treatment (pros, cons, benefits, risks) can be discussed. If the test reveals no abnormality, that is useful information, because it removes conditions from the list in the original differential diagnosis. If there will be no treatment decision based on the test, do not do it. Your mother had to give permission for the test to be done.

Residents have attending physicians who must sign off on the residents' work. If you question the resident's competence, just ask to see the attending.

Why did your mother even see the doctor who stopped the blood thinners if she had already had been advised not to have surgery but take Tamoxifen?

A hospital cannot just "send up" a surgeon to do a procedure. Someone would have to sign a consent form.

Why did you not follow the advice about the feeding tube? Do you not know you could have it removed if you had power of attorney for your mother? Why did you leave her in a facility that left her lying in filth?

Massive lost opportunities for better communication here.
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Old 06-04-2016, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Austin
1,679 posts, read 3,254,697 times
Reputation: 1078
Quote:
It's frankly pretty sick and disgusting how we basically force old people to be subjected to procedures and treatments just to drag out the length of their life without regard to their quality of life
This.
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Old 06-04-2016, 06:28 PM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
4,212 posts, read 4,688,270 times
Reputation: 7853
Quote:
Originally Posted by yourown2feet View Post
<snip> I know someone who is 85 who had one, and the surgeon found and removed some pre-cancerous polyps. That's just saying that there is no point to making someone do it, who does not want to.
I cannot fathom why an 85 year old had a colonoscopy. My father had one when he was about 85 years old but I'm sure he insisted on it. IMO, the physician should have refused.

After the procedure, the gastroenterologist advised me and my father that my father would never again need to have one. Y'think?! In the average person, i.e. no inflammatory disease or hereditary form of colon cancer, it takes about 10 years for a pre-cancerous polyp to become cancerous.

My brother had very frequent colonoscopies because he has ulcerative colitis. The docs found his cancer when he was in his early 50's. Permanent colostomy, etc.

Because of my brother's history, my GI recommends I have a colonoscopy every 5 years. LOL Unless he can arrange for me to have IV fluids at home while prepping, it ain't gonna happen. The prep leaves me so severely dehydrated I can hardly walk. The older I get, the worse it gets.
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