Parents won't update Estate Plan (adult, spouse, money, relative)

[dwnmo]

This is going to be long but I hope someone can give me some advice.

The background:

Mom (83) and Step Dad (83) live in Florida. Mom has 3 daughters (2 in MI, 1 in NC). Step Dad has 2 sons (1 in FL, 1 in MI). Not a particularly close family. Things need to be outlined very clearly in will/trust to avoid conflict.

Mom is very independent and created a Trust (and maybe POA papers, but not sure about this) using Legal Zoom back in 2006. I'm not sure if this was done correctly or if the properties listed in the Trust were actually signed over to the Trust. It is outdated as to which properties they own, bank accounts, etc. It is written fairly simply with assets going first to surviving spouse, then to be split 5 ways among the 5 kids when second spouse dies.

Mom and Step Dad live in Florida. I understand some rules changed in Florida regarding Estate Plans in 2011 and people have had to update their plans accordingly. We (my sister and I) would like parents to meet with an attorney to determine 1) if the legal zoom estate plan is valid (unlikely) 2) either update or replace current estate plan to make sure everything necessary is covered.

Both Mom and Step Dad are likely in beginning stages of dementia. Mom is worse than SD and very stubborn/independent. Neither have been diagnosed YET with any memory issues.

December 2019 I started talking with them about making sure their plan was current. (We had friends whose parent in Florida passed away and had significant issues dealing with the estate because the estate plan hadn't been update. We're trying to be proactive on this to avoid the same situation.) SD understood back then and seemed happy to move forward. Mom was more resistant because she doesn't want to give up control of anything (although she is no longer capable of doing it herself) and kept saying she would just do it via Legal Zoom again.

Covid hit and everything was put on the back burner because I couldn't get down there to work on this.

In the past several months I've been reminding Mom that we need to start working on this again. She keeps saying she's too busy (she's not), she doesn't want to do it right now, etc. She keeps saying this and also is indicating at times that she really doesn't know what I'm talking about.

My sister is in Florida for 2 months right now and we developed a plan - trying to break it down in bites for parents:

Step 1) Sister will help parents make an appointment with lawyer.
Step 2) Sister will take parents to first appointment with lawyer in a couple of weeks.
Step 3) If possible, sister will help parents pull together paperwork for lawyer.
Step 4) She or I will go down again and try to finish this up - if necessary.

Sister is there now and has tried twice to get them to grab their calendars and call the lawyer for an appointment. They won't do it. They "don't want to do it right now" etc. It HAS to be done by the parents. We can't do anything on behalf of parents.

So we are struggling. We could just let it all play out in the courts but really don't know what that means. SD is pretty much a caretaker for my mom who is legally blind at this point. Step brothers are not good people and would probably try to steal all the money somehow if it all ended up with SD after mom passes.

We can't do ANYTHING on this with the attorney until parents meet IN PERSON with them. So my questions are:
1) ANY suggestions on how to deal with this? Is it possible the INTENT of the obsolete Trust would carry any weight if she/he or both pass away?
2) Could WE put together an Estate Plan online via Legal Zoom or other and just get proper witnesses/notary signatures or whatever is necessary and have parents sign it? Not trying to do anything untoward - they will know what they're doing and why it is being done. It's just a matter of finding the easiest way to get them to move forward.

I really appreciate any thoughts you have. It's so challenging trying to manage this long distance. Thank you.

[Aredhel]

Originally Posted by dwnmo

We can't do ANYTHING on this with the attorney until parents meet IN PERSON with them. So my questions are:
1) ANY suggestions on how to deal with this? Is it possible the INTENT of the obsolete Trust would carry any weight if she/he or both pass away?

Unfortunately that is not likely.

2) Could WE put together an Estate Plan online via Legal Zoom or other and just get proper witnesses/notary signatures or whatever is necessary and have parents sign it?

You could try, but this sounds like a complicated estate (2 different sets of kids, multiple properties), and if you don't do everything right you wind up right back in probate court. This is really something a competent estate attorney should be handling.

Here's an off-the-wall thought: is there any chance your stepsister could convince an estate attorney to come out to your parents' house to meet with them?

And a durable financial POA and healthcare POA for each of them needs to be drawn up NOW, before they become mentally incompetent to sign off on the paperwork. I'd make that the priority over the will/trust, as either you or your sister are going to need those legal powers soon if dementia is setting in.

I'm sorry you're in such a tough situation. Stubborn elders are too often their own worst enemy!

[dwnmo]

Thank you. That's a good suggestion about seeing if an attorney will come to their house. I'm not sure Mom would even agree to that but it's a good option to pursue.

[TrilbyandDixie]

Think of someone in the family that they really don't like. Tell them that so and so has a really good lawyer and is able to tie up the estates of all relatives that die without a current will so that he can get their money.

Sometimes people will do more to avoid letting someone they don't like win than they will otherwise.

[dwnmo]

Thanks. I have a bit of an update. I'm sure you all can't fix this but maybe you can help clear my mind.

My sister just called. She is down at their house right now trying to talk to my Mom about this. Mom is saying:

1) step dad is being verbally abusive and she's afraid he's going to smash her computer (?) and maybe her. We very much doubt this is literally true as he is so caring and loving around her when we are there. But then again, we are not there. He does have a temper, so does she. We saw it when we were kids. She can be so very stubborn and hard to live with. It's probably 100x worse because he has to take care of her now - and she HATES that she can't do things herself. It's possible he has lost his patience at times. I CANNOT imagine he would be doing or saying the horrible things she is saying about him.

2) She is adamant that she doesn't want Step Dad at the appointment when they redo the estate plan. Of course, he has to be there as the assets are joint. She is also adamant that one of his sons doesn't get a penny. Of course, that will never happen. SD will never take his son out of the will.

3) she says she should have divorced him years ago but now she can't because he takes care of her.

I don't know if there has been something specific that has changed in their relationship recently to cause all this or if it's her dementia progressing. I know the disease can cause changes in personality. It's like all the worst of her characteristics are coming out in full force at the same time. Also, he may be getting more short tempered through all this too (maybe a little dementia here too).

We have tried explaining that we are trying to protect her and her daughters. Told her that the estate plan has already been agreed to in 2006 and we would just update that same plan. Reminded her of her brother who sued my mom and her sisters for part of their Aunt's estate. It's just not registering with her.
My mom, of course, has no idea that she likely has dementia. Every time she goes to the doctor they tell her how healthy she is.

Question: How can we get Power of Attorney if they won't agree to it? I feel like that's what we need to do some how right away. It's possible they have POA for each other (from 2006). Not sure if it would still be valid. How do we move it away from POA for each other to one of us?

[Parnassia]

You say you don't know whether any POAs exist. If no one's revoked one and neither of them have been declared incompetent, they still stand. If neither of them will tell you whether any POAs exist, you'll have to accept that. If neither will agree to changing an existing POA or granting a new one to one of you, you'd have to pursue guardianship based on competency. Tough row to hoe...emotional upheaval, time consuming, and expensive. Which it should be. At some point an MD's evaluation supporting your petition would probably be needed.

The reality is, a competent person still has the autonomy to make bad decisions and do things we don't happen to agree with. Maybe what you should be spending your energy on is what actions you could take IF or WHEN some bad outcome actually does occur. You do have some control over that.

Stubborn people tend to get even more so when they feel cornered. It isn't logical, its because they feel threatened, possibly even doubting themselves already. One strategy that worked with my stubborn fairly paranoid Dad when he was facing a trainwreck but refused to do anything about it, was to casually bring up "a co-worker's Dad" or some situation I had supposedly heard about that just happened to be similar to the issue my Dad was refusing to face. In conversation, described what those people considered and what finally ended up coming out of it. Let it hang there and get absorbed. Then, if my Dad took the bait I was magically prepared with facts and a plan. Sometimes it triggered a good conversation. OK, it was devious, but it took the pressure off and helped him think it through for himself.

Maybe if your mother doesn't feel badgered she might just come around to your thinking.

[daliowa]

Talk to an elder care attorney in their area.


Ask if the attorney will do a tele-visit via computer.


That way you only have to get both parents in the same
room as the computer, not dressed and into the car.

[Nov3]

How about approaching it with an open mind. Directly ask your parent if she is confident in her current estate plan. Let HER decide. Then either but out or if she needs to have it updated, have an appointment made.
I don't sit with my adult sons and dig into their estate plans . There is a simple regard on that level. If we need assistance we ask. Otherwise, not my asset to monitor.

If as you say she has dementia...her modifications at this point , can and should be challenged in court. I've seen relatives try too little to late to change estates . Some for good reasons, others for gains.

[dwnmo]

Thanks. I have talked to an elder care attorney in their area. They said my parents have to be the one to call and make the appointment. (Three different attorneys told me this.) That's what my sister has been trying to do for two days - get them to call and make the appointment while she's sitting with them to help. They won't do it. At this point, I think it's mostly because my Mom wishes she wasn't married to my step dad right now and doesn't want to do anything jointly at the moment.

I think we're going to let it go for the time being and see if my Mom comes out of this mood that she's in and try again later.

To the above poster: we're not trying to change her current estate plan. Just update it so it complies with current Florida law. Her plan is simple - divided between the 5 kids which is what we all want. Not having it valid is what's going to cause it to be challenged in court - likely by my loser step brothers.

Thanks, I appreciate you listening to my frustrated rant.

[oldtrader]

You have to realize if there is dementia in the picture, that your mother is not capable of rational thought. Asking her to talk to an attorney, is putting pressure on her that she can avoid by not doing it.

People with dementia are not capable of rational thought.

As you are one of the beneficiaries, you can take the paperwork to an attorney, and ask them if it is still legal as it stands. If still legal problem solved. If not then you need to get your family to an attorney, but before you do that, get a legal opinion of the current paperwork.

My wife has late stage dementia, so I want to warn you, if you think it is bad now trying to reason with your mother, it is going to get a lot worse. So time is of the essence.