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Old 04-16-2013, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
20,396 posts, read 14,667,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHARM411 View Post
I did not suggest that dry food would be an adequate substitution for proper conventional dental cleaning. Thus I wouldn't attempt to eat Captain Crunch as a means of daily teeth cleaning. So I won't be "letting you know how that works out". You may very well be correct that excessively abrasive dry food may cause gum laceration, I cannot speak to that statement. The abrasiveness of hard food does in fact aide in dental health cats, however you are perfectly within your own right to disagree with veterinary feline experts that claim this fact. Thank you for your snark and disingenuous best wishes.
Ah, snark. I love that word. And yes, I'm a very snarky person.

But you ascribe more ill-will to it than there is, I assure you, and I am never ever disingenuous in my best wishing, to anyone.

As tone doesn't convey on the internet, please paint my post with the sense that:

I disagree with some of the things you have said.
Here is my logic, as to why.
But it's nothing personal, really truly.

The most glaring fact of them all is that there is no united front in the vast community of "experts" as to what is the most healthful choice in the feeding of cats. One must choose what to believe. Many vets suggest things that a number of us here don't agree with. Most of us in that camp of thinking have been brought to our current position by Dr. Pierson over at catinfo.org, which is why I cite it in conjunction with my posts, many of which go against conventional veterinary thinking....so even if a majority of vets would tell me something, that doesn't mean I believe it. Or will agree. After all, I would say that a majority of veterinarians in the United States promote and sell Hill's Science Diet foods. I would never feed that brand to my pet.

Only time will tell if my departure from the ideas of these many college educated veterinary professionals has done good or ill for my cat.
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:21 PM
 
11,276 posts, read 19,580,966 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg42 View Post
But you do have a significant thing wrong there: ash is not something added to foods at all. Ash is what is left over when the food is burned. Nothing more, nothing less. This will be mineral content, yes, but it doesn't tell you much of anything useful by itself. If you actually knew how much was phosphorous, how much was calcium, etc. it would be meaningful. (Lower phosphorous would be better for example, especially if your cat was already diagnosed with kidney disease like mine.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by PHARM411 View Post
I did not suggest that dry food would be an adequate substitution for proper conventional dental cleaning. Thus I wouldn't attempt to eat Captain Crunch as a means of daily teeth cleaning. So I won't be "letting you know how that works out". You may very well be correct that excessively abrasive dry food may cause gum laceration, I cannot speak to that statement. The abrasiveness of hard food does in fact aide in dental health cats, however you are perfectly within your own right to disagree with veterinary feline experts that claim this fact. Thank you for your snark and disingenuous best wishes.
Dry food does not clean teeth.

Cats are obligate carnivores. They do not grind food. They can not grind food, because their jaws do not rotate, they only go up and down.

When a sharp pointed object such as a carnivore's tooth breaks into a piece of kibble, it shatters, it does not "scrape the tooth clean". The crumbs left are more likely to adhere to the tooth's surface, eventually getting along or under the gum line, where it will grow bacteria, turning into plaque, then tartar, then gum disease.

That little video demonstration that Hill's has means nothing. All it shows is a (fake) pointed tooth stained at the tip. It then shows this "tooth" pushing into a piece of kibble, miraculously cleaning off the tip. Tartar doesn't grow on the tip of a tooth, it begins at the gumline and gradually encroaches over the whole tooth and under the gum, if there is not professional intervention. By the time tartar reaches the tip of a tooth such as shown in that video, that tooth is way beyond the help any kibble or anything else can give with the exception of a professional, under anesthesia, dental cleaning by an experienced skilled vet or veterinary dentist.

And of course, many cats don't bother to "chew" dry food anyway. Since they aren't designed to eat it, they simply swallow it whole.

Dental health is largely genetic but you can help keep a cat's teeth healthy by feeding a wet (canned) diet high in meat protein and low in carbohydrates, and/or a raw diet.

Home brushing can be done too, of course, but many cats will need dental cleanings done at least once or twice in their lives. Cats hide pain, so they can go years with mouth pain and you'd never know it.

Dry food is very dehydrating. A cat cannot drink enough water to counteract the dehydrating effects of an all dry diet, which puts a lot of stress on the kidneys and urinary tract. It also takes a long time to digest, as opposed to a wet or raw diet, causing digestive problems such as vomiting, regurgitation, inflammation in the esophagus, gut or bowel.
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:39 PM
 
8 posts, read 10,272 times
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Hmm Yes I just always thought that dry is better...I know I know-I may have to do it-after almost 600.00 in vet bills and seeing my cats suffer...I have to do something.http://xin70.info/17.jpghttp://xin70.info/18.jpghttp://xin70.info/19.jpghttp://xin70.info/20.jpg
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:49 PM
 
11,276 posts, read 19,580,966 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erin606 View Post
Hmm Yes I just always thought that dry is better...I know I know-I may have to do it-after almost 600.00 in vet bills and seeing my cats suffer...I have to do something.
Many have learned the hard way. The important thing is that you have learned, are learning, and now will take those steps to change. It's not an easy switch, for many cats addicted to kibble, but it can be done.

When people switch from dry to wet, they are amazed at the difference in their cats. They always thought their cats were "fine", but getting them on a wet diet, one will discover how much more than "fine" a cat can be.
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Old 10-09-2013, 02:19 AM
 
62 posts, read 295,217 times
Reputation: 49
I looked up every single ingredient in Wellness core, I did find a few things I would think about causing an UTI. The list of ingredients is very long. It is my uneducated guess that since cats do get uti from milk that the problem with this food might be all the milk based probiotic mix. The weight gain could be the potato. Below is what I found about each of the ingredients. Way to many for me. Aren't most of those supplements to preserve the food and not even help the cat since most of them are destroyed in processing? I would look for a cat food with less products in it. That's just me though. I used to make their raw food and I sure never put this much stuff in it. I am thinking about making it again since they did so good on it. I now give them Rad Cat and a few supplements for herpes.
Below are the ingredients in Wellness and what they are for plus a point score 1-5. 5 being the high.

deboned turkey (2 stars) found in 1% of pet food products analyzed
Contains water in the muscles, adds weight to dry food, less protein nutrition! Best used in can food.

Deboned Chicken,(3 stars) found in 2% of pet food products analyzed
Chicken meat is filled with water, less protein, deboned can be misleading as to higher quality.

Chicken Meal,(5 stars) found in 17% of pet food products analyzed
Concentrated chicken meat, more protein since water weight has been removed. Excellent source of protein for cats, good source for dogs.
whitefish meal (4 stars) found in 1% of pet food products analyzed
Good alternative to standard meats in concentrated form for more protein, can have oils expressed.

herring meal (4 stars) found in 2% of pet food products analyzed
Excellent source of protein, poor source of fatty acids as oil is pressed out of fish to make meal.
peas (5 stars) found in 7% of pet food products analyzed
Excellent source of protein/carbohydrates/fiber.
turkey meal (1 stars) found in 1% of pet food products analyzed
Can include carcass, feet, beaks and diseased turkey organs, tumors.
potato (3 stars) found in 5% of pet food products analyzed
A carbohydrate source, can use as cheap filler, can cause weight gain and digestive upset.
chicken fat (naturally preserved with mixed tocopherols) (4 stars) found in 19% of pet food products analyzed
Good source of energy and flavor, preserved with Vitamin E, but dogs do better with vegetable and fish oils.
tomato pomace (2 stars) found in 5% of pet food products analyzed
Mostly used as gimmick, not enough nutrition is available to make a difference, can be too acidic on digestive tract causing upset.
natural chicken flavor (3 stars) found in 14% of pet food products analyzed
Gimmicky. Designated as natural, seems better than plain chicken flavor but it's the same. Unless noted as artificial it's all "natural" regardless of quality.
ground flax seed (3 stars) found in 3% of pet food products analyzed
Is not "whole" ground, just flour that might be lacking in fatty acids.
cranberries (3 stars) found in 2% of pet food products analyzed
Gimmicky, not enough used in food to help the urinary tract.
chicory extract (4 stars) found in 3% of pet food products analyzed
Concentrated source of innulin, a prebiotic, gimmicky but more effective than plain root or powders.
choline chloride (3 stars) found in 88% of pet food products analyzed
Standard source of choline, emulsifies fats.
salmon oil (2 stars) found in 2% of pet food products analyzed
May contain higher levels of mercury than other fish oils.
vitamin E (3 stars) found in 95% of pet food products analyzed
Antioxidant used as food preservative.
niacin (3 stars) found in 69% of pet food products analyzed
Standard source, promotes proper digestion, healthy skin and nerves.
beta carotene (4 stars) found in 23% of pet food products analyzed
Source of Vitamin A precursor, aids immune response, allergy control, slows aging.
vitamin A supplement (3 stars) found in 54% of pet food products analyzed
Standard source of A, vital to immune function, develops strong eyes and bones, lowers risk to cancer.
thiamine mononitrate (3 stars) found in 93% of pet food products analyzed
Standard source of B-1, effects nervous system and mental attitude.
pyridoxine hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6) (3 stars) found in 80% of pet food products analyzed
Standard source, immune stimulant, major factor in protein metabolism and red blood cell production.
calcium pantothenate (3 stars) found in 60% of pet food products analyzed
Standard source of a B-complex vitamin B5, supports adrenal activity.
riboflavin supplement (3 stars) found in 1% of pet food products analyzed
Vitamin B-2 needed for rich red blood cell production.

vitamin D-3 (3 stars) found in 84% of pet food products analyzed
Standard source, aids calcium and phosphorous in building bones and teeth.
vitamin B-12 (3 stars) found in 2% of pet food products analyzed
Standard source, involved in immune function.
folic acid (3 stars) found in 80% of pet food products analyzed
Standard source, needed for blood building and DNA synthesis.
biotin (3 stars) found in 96% of pet food products analyzed
Standard source to promote healthy skin and coat.
ascorbic acid (2 stars) found in 34% of pet food products analyzed
Vitamin C -- this form can be harsher on stomach, anti-oxidant/immune stimulant, food preservative.
Minerals
zinc proteinate (5 stars) found in 13% of pet food products analyzed
Best source of zinc, protects against free radicals, essential to insulin formation and immune function.
zinc sulfate (3 stars) found in 32% of pet food products analyzed
Standard source of zinc, protects against free radicals, essential to insulin formation and immune function.
iron proteinate (5 stars) found in 6% of pet food products analyzed
Excellent, most expensive source of iron needed for red blood cell reproduction.
ferrous sulfate (3 stars) found in 74% of pet food products analyzed
Standard source of iron, promotes oxygen-rich blood, immune support.
copper sulfate (3 stars) found in 76% of pet food products analyzed
Standard source, aids in bone formation, iron absorption and protein metabolism.

copper proteinate (5 stars) found in 23% of pet food products analyzed
Best source of copper used, aids in bone formation, iron absorption, protein metabolism, bone formation
manganese proteinate (5 stars) found in 13% of pet food products analyzed
Best source of manganese, necessary to development of strong bones and enzyme activators, enhances immune system.
manganese sulfate (4 stars) found in 37% of pet food products analyzed
Better source, manganese is necessary to development of strong bones and enzyme activators, enhances immune system.
sodium selenite (3 stars) found in 67% of pet food products analyzed
Standard source of selenium, powerful anti-oxidant protects the body from free radicals and heavy metals, supports immune response.
calcium iodate (3 stars) found in 41% of pet food products analyzed
Source of iodine, promotes strong bones, teeth, cardiovascular health and skeletal strength.
taurine (3 stars) found in 39% of pet food products analyzed
Standard source, necessary for cats who do not manufacture taurine on their own, helps regulate nervous system, promotes thyroid and cardiovascular health. Some benefit to dogs.
Mixed Tocopherols added to preserve freshness, mixed tocopherols (a source of natural vitamin E) (5 stars) found in 1% of pet food products analyzed
Superior source of natural Vitamin E oils.
dried kelp (3 stars) found in 8% of pet food products analyzed
Industry standard source of iodine.
yucca schidigera extract (4 stars) found in 3% of pet food products analyzed
Used to reduce stool odor, concentrated.
Lactobacillus plantarum is a probiotic bacterium that was originally isolated from sourdough bread; it’s resistant to gastric acid and remains in the small intestine when ingested. L. plantarum generates lactic acid and bacteriocins. This probiotic also has very high lactase activity, and can deliver lactase throughout the stomach and small intestine in order to facilitate the digestion of lactose.
E. faecium) are naturally occuring (commensal) bacteria that exist in the guts of humans and other animals, at varying proportions. However, many such commensal bacteria can become opportunistic pathogens when an animal is immuno-compromised, or when the bacteria enter another part of the body than where they're normally found. In those situations they can cause disease. L. casei is industrial, specifically for dairy production. However, a team of scientists from Simón Bolívar University in Caracas, Venezuela found that, by using L. casei bacteria in the natural fermentation of beans, the beans contained lower levels of the compounds causing flatulence upon digestion.[1]
Lactobacillus casei is typically the dominant species of nonstarter lactic acid bacteria (NSLAB) present in ripening Cheddar cheese, and, recently, the complete genome sequence of L. casei ATCC 334 has become available. L. casei is also the dominant species in naturally fermented Sicilian green olives.[2] lactobacillus acidophilus (3 stars) found in 3% of pet food products analyzed
Gimmicky probiotic to aid digestion, not enough to help and can not stand up to heat processing.
rosemary extract (5 stars) found in 22% of pet food products analyzed
Natural preservative, concentrated.
green tea (3 stars) found in 1% of pet food products analyzed
Gimmicky, not enough used for therapeutic response unless listed higher on label.
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Old 10-09-2013, 04:06 AM
 
11,276 posts, read 19,580,966 times
Reputation: 24269
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob&willy View Post
I looked up every single ingredient in Wellness core, I did find a few things I would think about causing an UTI. The list of ingredients is very long. It is my uneducated guess that since cats do get uti from milk that the problem with this food might be all the milk based probiotic mix. .
That's a new one! What makes you think cats get UTIs from milk? Many cats are lactose intolerant, and milk might give them diarrhea, but....

I am curious where you got that idea?
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Old 10-13-2013, 02:25 AM
 
62 posts, read 295,217 times
Reputation: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by catsmom21 View Post
That's a new one! What makes you think cats get UTIs from milk? Many cats are lactose intolerant, and milk might give them diarrhea, but....

I am curious where you got that idea?
Google
I still would not give a cat this cat food even if milk products are great for cats. It has other ingredients that are not.
I have become a strong label reader and continue to educate myself about human and cat food.
That is how I choose to be. I trust nothing these days.
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Old 10-13-2013, 06:34 AM
 
11,276 posts, read 19,580,966 times
Reputation: 24269
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob&willy View Post
Google
I still would not give a cat this cat food even if milk products are great for cats. It has other ingredients that are not.
I have become a strong label reader and continue to educate myself about human and cat food.
That is how I choose to be. I trust nothing these days
.
I am the same way, it's a good way to be. But not everything you read on the internet is true, in fact much of it is false.

Being aware, and being a label reader is good. But, I still don't understand how anyone can come to the conclusion that milk will cause urinary tract infections in cats.

Milk is ..milk. It doesn't have "other ingredients". It's just milk. Cats don't need it and some cats are lactose intolerant.

Perhaps there is some misconception about the calcium content of milk being detrimental to cats, huh.
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Old 10-14-2013, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Sacramento CA
303 posts, read 540,200 times
Reputation: 359
Never had had any problems with Wellness canned food. They've been eating it almost a year now and they're healthy as ever. I don't get the Wellness Core dry food though. They eat Simply Nourish, I found the ingredients to be better dry-food wise.
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Old 10-14-2013, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
20,396 posts, read 14,667,898 times
Reputation: 39492
Simply Nourish (Petsmart's own brand) has got a canned food, the chicken and duck stew, that my boy just goes bananas for. I think it's pretty good stuff! It's not on the chart for protein/fat/carbs that I could see, at this point, but it is a grain free high moisture canned food.

I wish that Wellness would make a 3oz variety of the canned CORE flavors. I prefer to deal with the smaller cans than the bigger ones...and we've had some cat-approval for the chicken/turkey/duck kind.

Heck...Nimbus just plain likes duck.
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