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Subsist is certainly the word. Cats eating kibble, any kibble, be it grocery store or "prescription" are not going to thrive. They may live a long life, subsisting, but it is not a thriving life.
Do we have a working definition for cat subsistence? If a cat plays/stays active, looks good and hasn't any health issues is that considered subsisting or thriving? Many kibble eating cats still manage to display those traits well into old age.
Do we have a working definition for cat subsistence? If a cat plays/stays active, looks good and hasn't any health issues is that considered subsisting or thriving? Many kibble eating cats still manage to display those traits well into old age.
When one takes the cat off kibble and puts the cat on a more species appropriate diet, that is when the difference between subsisting and thriving will be observed. Cats, by their very nature hide any illness or discomfort. A cat in a perpetual state of dehydration, with a constant tummy ache, all from eating dry kibble, will still play and "look good". The cat seems "fine".
The cat, however is not looking and feeling as good as one might think. When the switch is made, from dry to wet, the difference can be seen. Again, when the switch is made from a 'lower quality' wet to one that does not contain fillers and other undesirable ingredients, even more improvement will be observed. If one chooses to go a few steps further and feed raw, the usual reaction is stunned amazement at the difference.
Diet matters. How can it not? What one eats determines every single body function. The better the diet, the better everything will function. And for cats, who have very small bodies, diet is extremely important, and hydration has everything to do with it.
I'm glad you've found a canned food that your cat will eat. Be sure to have his urine checked after about 2 months on the new food, and then once more, 6 months from now, to be sure all is still well.
LOl @ people so quick with the name-calling, only to show even more ignorance.
Merck & Co., Inc., is one of the world's largest pharmaceutical companies.
Don't know what drugs have to do with nutritional requirements of obligate carnivores, so then why is Merck an expert in crystals of carnivores, when they won't even recognize what a carnivore IS? That's easy when one never has to look hard for conflicts of interests. Try finding one college among these Merck Manual "contributors" not generously funded by one of the Big 3 -- EDIT: Forgot Canada. Make that one of the Big 4 -- in commercial food which Merck coincidentally, endorse.
*Just Who do people think fund any/all nutritional research in veterinary universities, anyway?
For those who still fail to see conflicts of interest:
FACT: Obligate carnivores lack necessary Amalase enzymes to break down carbs/cellulose.
FACT: Natural low thirst drive.
FACT: Don't have teeth or jaws capable of chewing cereal. Period. Here's the picture. Again.
I highly doubt you are more knowledgeable or educated than these people, yet have the audacity to label them and people who share their information (same as the oft-cited Dr. Pierson who goes by the SAME FACTS) as "tin foil".
Do you have the credentials of Dr. Elizabeth Hodgkins DVM/ESQ, who ALSO discovered how to get Diabetic cats into REMISSION?
Elizabeth Hodgkins, DVM ― Expert Opinion on Pet Food Industry Supplemental Testimony for Agriculture Appropriations Subcommittee April 12, 2007
My Opinion: It's animal abuse, fraud, and malpractice to force a creature not even capable of chewing, processing carb-laden "food", to consume it DAILY -- especially under the false pretense of medicine with "prescription" on the labels.
Bash my opinion regarding malpractice and fraud all you wish with more childish name-calling in defending your provincial mindset and citing such a biased source, but facts are facts regarding the nutritional requirements of obligate carnivores. And you, or any vet in the pockets of the PFI, will never be able to prove otherwise.
Try Photoshopping the picture lol.
Last edited by Pamina333; 12-31-2012 at 01:49 PM..
When one takes the cat off kibble and puts the cat on a more species appropriate diet, that is when the difference between subsisting and thriving will be observed. Cats, by their very nature hide any illness or discomfort. A cat in a perpetual state of dehydration, with a constant tummy ache, all from eating dry kibble, will still play and "look good". The cat seems "fine".
The cat, however is not looking and feeling as good as one might think. When the switch is made, from dry to wet, the difference can be seen. Again, when the switch is made from a 'lower quality' wet to one that does not contain fillers and other undesirable ingredients, even more improvement will be observed. If one chooses to go a few steps further and feed raw, the usual reaction is stunned amazement at the difference.
Diet matters. How can it not? What one eats determines every single body function. The better the diet, the better everything will function. And for cats, who have very small bodies, diet is extremely important, and hydration has everything to do with it.
I'm glad you've found a canned food that your cat will eat. Be sure to have his urine checked after about 2 months on the new food, and then once more, 6 months from now, to be sure all is still well.
Interestingly enough I have yet to see such behavior exhibited by a cat that has gone off of kibble and onto a canned food. I have a difficult time believing that a cat in distress will "act fine", as most I've known tend to be very vocal about expressing issues with various situations. Of course diet matters for most but find it fascinating how many animals on such high quality diets still have such issues yet those on the supposedly poor diets have a higher quality (and longer) life. Much like my wonderful Grandmother Nan who hated vegetables, loved red meat, enjoyed a Manhattan everyday and never exercised. She lived happily and healthily (no medications) to the ripe old age of 92. Just like humans, every cat is different and there is no right answer for all cats. That's my point.
LOl @ people so quick with the name-calling, only to show even more ignorance.
Merck & Co., Inc., is one of the world's largest pharmaceutical companies.
Don't know what drugs have to do with nutritional requirements of obligate carnivores, so then why is Merck an expert in crystals of carnivores, when they won't even recognize what a carnivore IS? That's easy when one never has to look hard for conflicts of interests. Try finding one college among these Merck Manual "contributors" not generously funded by one of the Big 3 -- EDIT: Forgot Canada. Make that one of the Big 4 -- in commercial food which Merck coincidentally, endorse.
*Just Who do people think fund any/all nutritional research in veterinary universities, anyway?
For those who still fail to see conflicts of interest:
FACT: Obligate carnivores lack necessary Amalase enzymes to break down carbs/cellulose.
FACT: Natural low thirst drive.
FACT: Don't have teeth or jaws capable of chewing cereal. Period. Here's the picture. Again.
I highly doubt you are more knowledgeable or educated than these people, yet have the audacity to label them and people who share their information (same as the oft-cited Dr. Pierson who goes by the SAME FACTS) as "tin foil".
Do you have the credentials of Dr. Elizabeth Hodgkins DVM/ESQ, who ALSO discovered how to get Diabetic cats into REMISSION?
Elizabeth Hodgkins, DVM ― Expert Opinion on Pet Food Industry Supplemental Testimony for Agriculture Appropriations Subcommittee April 12, 2007
My Opinion: It's animal abuse, fraud, and malpractice to force a creature not even capable of chewing, processing carb-laden "food", to consume it DAILY -- especially under the false pretense of medicine with "prescription" on the labels.
Bash my opinion regarding malpractice and fraud all you wish with more childish name-calling in defending your provincial mindset and citing such a biased source, but facts are facts regarding the nutritional requirements of obligate carnivores. And you, or any vet in the pockets of the PFI, will never be able to prove otherwise.
Try Photoshopping the picture lol.
I wasn't going to even answer your crazy-cat-person extended diatribe but did want to make a point (if at all possible) with you. You maintain it's animal abuse to force a creature "not even capable of chewing processed carb-laden food" to consume it daily. Interestingly enough my cats (and many others I have known) are obsessed with dry kibble, to the point where they stand at the pantry door waiting for it. If it's such abuse/torture, please explain why they can't wait to have it over the supposedly more natural/more manageable moist food?
LOL I don't even own cats. Dogs all my life. Keep up the insults, it really adds even more credibility to your articulate posts.
That's too easy. Not you, but perhaps people with more open minds may wish to look into animal digest and the other gunk put on the stuff to ENTICE the animals to eat it. LOL it's no secret anymore. (Guess the recall catastrophe of 2007 found you under your provincial rock while people like me were frantically scrambling & RESEARCHING for something safe to feed....) People only have to google the ingredients on the mainstream labels to see for themselves.
Not that you would believe it, but cats go by SMELL.
If people do even a little research into the mainstream commercial pet food industry, or click a link on the information provided by VETERINARIANS IN THE KNOW such as Dr. Hodgkins who was a higher-up for Hill's earlier in her career, they'll know allll about it.
Anne Martin's book, Food Pets Die For, is also a good start for people seeking the truths, as she spent over a decade undercover.
Instead of hurling insults, why don't you look at the picture and explain how a cat is able to grind and chew it properly/sufficiently?
Last edited by Pamina333; 12-31-2012 at 03:13 PM..
Brewers Rice, Corn Gluten Meal, Chicken By-Product Meal, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Chicken Liver Flavor, Fish Oil, Potassium Chloride, Calcium Sulfate, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Iodized Salt, Potassium Citrate, vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Taurine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), preserved with BHT and BHA, Beta-Carotene.
I don't see any "medicine" in it, as is strongly implied -- especially considering the PRICETAG. The First-Main ingredients, Brewers rice and corn gluten, have NO logical place in a daily diet of ANY carnivorous mammal and are NOT MEDICINE.
May wish to look into BHT & BHA, and why they are BANNED nearly worldwide from human foods. Even the cheapest of pet food makers have ceased using them in foods -- for a reason.
Last edited by Pamina333; 12-31-2012 at 05:11 PM..
Interestingly enough I have yet to see such behavior exhibited by a cat that has gone off of kibble and onto a canned food. I have a difficult time believing that a cat in distress will "act fine", as most I've known tend to be very vocal about expressing issues with various situations. Of course diet matters for most but find it fascinating how many animals on such high quality diets still have such issues yet those on the supposedly poor diets have a higher quality (and longer) life. Much like my wonderful Grandmother Nan who hated vegetables, loved red meat, enjoyed a Manhattan everyday and never exercised. She lived happily and healthily (no medications) to the ripe old age of 92. Just like humans, every cat is different and there is no right answer for all cats. That's my point.
Actually there IS one right answer for cats. Cats are obligate carnivores. This is not a matter of opinion, it is FACT. A balanced high moisture meat based diet is what cats are designed by nature to eat. Since this is not easy to do in today's world, you're right, people have to make the best choices they can, with what they have available. However feeding a cat a wet diet should be non-negotiable, and yes, that part is opinion.
Cats are not humans and their biological and dietary needs are not ANYthing like humans, so comparing a cat to your grandmother is pointless.
Seeing improvement in a cat with a diet improvement can take many weeks, or even months. It will be one year, in two weeks, since I took my struvite kitty off that corn laden "prescription" stuff. I have seen vast improvements, over this period, but she is no where near completely healed from the damage six years on that food caused.
When you begin to see signs of illness in a cat, the cat has been ill for a very long time already, or is in such distress that he can no longer hide it. Cats instinctively hide illness and pain. It is the way they are made.
Just a suggestion: stop reading studies done by pet food companies and pharmaceutical companies and read things by people who have no personal gain in sharing the information.
Anyway, like I said, have regular urinalysis done on your cat for the first six months or so, and then annually after that, to make sure he stays healthy on his wet diet.
Last edited by catsmom21; 12-31-2012 at 07:35 PM..
Interestingly enough I have yet to see such behavior exhibited by a cat that has gone off of kibble and onto a canned food. I have a difficult time believing that a cat in distress will "act fine", as most I've known tend to be very vocal about expressing issues with various situations. Of course diet matters for most but find it fascinating how many animals on such high quality diets still have such issues yet those on the supposedly poor diets have a higher quality (and longer) life. Much like my wonderful Grandmother Nan who hated vegetables, loved red meat, enjoyed a Manhattan everyday and never exercised. She lived happily and healthily (no medications) to the ripe old age of 92. Just like humans, every cat is different and there is no right answer for all cats. That's my point.
I just want to point out that the scientific method - the only method recognized, universally, by credentialed scientists, requires that one look not so much at anecdote, which you have just done, but at the statistics. It is only then that we can reliably say we know what happens to "most" people who eat as your grandmother did. In my graduate school courses in research methods and statistics, which admittedly were only at the beginners level, I learned that one needs to take into account variables as well.
But the overall statistics will reveal quite a bit. Research which passes inspection by a board of scientists before it can even be published in a respected scientific journal is what we need to pay attention to, and quantitative data is of paramount importance, not just anecdotal evidence. Not our opinions or anecdotal stories, which are valuable, but only in that they might point a way to do more inquiry into a certain topic.
Getting back to the original intent of the thread versus the flamers who are intent in trying to derail it, the point is for those who have decided in conjunction with their trained veterinarian to temporarily utilize Urinary Tract Health Formula canned foods, it is strongly recommended through my experiences with either Hill's or Royal Canin that Purina ProPlan is worth checking out. Be advised your Vet most likely won't mention it as it's not sold in their offices, and is a fraction of the cost with much better quality ingredients as it does not contain corn/corn by products which cats (like humans) cannot fully digest. The magnesium and potassium levels are low (.02% and .0022% respectively) and has the desired moisture level (78%).
Purina ProPlan Urinary Tract Health canned ingredients: Water sufficient for processing, meat by-products, chicken, wheat gluten, corn starch-modified, natural and artificial flavors, soy flour, potassium chloride, taurine, tricalcium phosphate,salt, caramel color, Vitamin E supplement, thiamine monoitrate(Vitamin B-1), Vitamin A supplement, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, maganese sulfate, pyridoxine hydrochloride(Vitamin B-6), niacin, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement(Vitamin B-2), copper sulfate, Vitamin D-3 supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, meandione sodium bisulfite complex(Source of Vitamin K activity), folic acid, cobalt carbonate, potassium iodide, biotin
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