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Old 01-15-2013, 03:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by =^..^= View Post
Maybe something needs to be done about educating the Judges.
Surely so, but I think it's also a matter of educating society. Though I said earlier that things are much better then they were (and I do believe this to be true), conversations like this always make me think of the Noah's Ark tragedy in 1997. Three teenage boys broke into a no-kill shelter and beat 18 cats to death with baseball balls (and injured countless others.)

The reason I think of this now is that the judge found the cats were worth about $31 dollars a piece. The boys ended up getting 23 days in jail (plus probation, fines, and community service.) Several of the jury members admitted that they had killed cats in the past- they took the breaking and entering part more seriously than the beatings. And I vividly remembering reading an interview with a person from the town who basically said yeah, she thought it was kind of horrible, but not worth so much fuss. They were just cats. They were just kids.

This happened in a rural area and obviously there was a different prevailing view of animals there. But if you get a judge who feels this way, they have a wide discretion in applying penalties for many cases.
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ParallelJJCat View Post
Surely so, but I think it's also a matter of educating society. Though I said earlier that things are much better then they were (and I do believe this to be true), conversations like this always make me think of the Noah's Ark tragedy in 1997. Three teenage boys broke into a no-kill shelter and beat 18 cats to death with baseball balls (and injured countless others.)

The reason I think of this now is that the judge found the cats were worth about $31 dollars a piece. The boys ended up getting 23 days in jail (plus probation, fines, and community service.) Several of the jury members admitted that they had killed cats in the past- they took the breaking and entering part more seriously than the beatings. And I vividly remembering reading an interview with a person from the town who basically said yeah, she thought it was kind of horrible, but not worth so much fuss. They were just cats. They were just kids.

This happened in a rural area and obviously there was a different prevailing view of animals there. But if you get a judge who feels this way, they have a wide discretion in applying penalties for many cases.

This entire story sickens me. I know that there are plenty of sickos like that everywhere. Did it not occur to the judge and jury that, if they didn't care about those poor animals, doing something like this is a warning for what these boys are capable of in general? Including with humans?
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha Anne View Post
This entire story sickens me. I know that there are plenty of sickos like that everywhere. Did it not occur to the judge and jury that, if they didn't care about those poor animals, doing something like this is a warning for what these boys are capable of in general? Including with humans?
We certainly know that violence toward animals features in the history of the majority of serial killers. It's part of a triad (bed wetting, animal abuse, and fire setting) that most such people share in common.

But while almost all serial killers abused animals, not all animal abusers go on to become serial killers. In some populations, childhood abuse of animals is just part of growing up. It's considered just part of growing up...like sneaking out or sneaking a beer. You do it while you're young and stupid, but it isn't considered something that makes you deviant. Hence why the people on the jury saw nothing wrong with sharing their own childhood stories of kicking around cats.

I don't know what the answer is, really.

(The entire Noah's Ark tragedy made a HUGE impact on me growing up. Hard to believe that such evil could exist, yet not be seen a evil...just a bit of ill-considered childhood fun)
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParallelJJCat View Post
We certainly know that violence toward animals features in the history of the majority of serial killers. It's part of a triad (bed wetting, animal abuse, and fire setting) that most such people share in common.

But while almost all serial killers abused animals, not all animal abusers go on to become serial killers. In some populations, childhood abuse of animals is just part of growing up. It's considered just part of growing up...like sneaking out or sneaking a beer. You do it while you're young and stupid, but it isn't considered something that makes you deviant. Hence why the people on the jury saw nothing wrong with sharing their own childhood stories of kicking around cats.

I don't know what the answer is, really.

(The entire Noah's Ark tragedy made a HUGE impact on me growing up. Hard to believe that such evil could exist, yet not be seen a evil...just a bit of ill-considered childhood fun)

I know what you mean...but using a baseball bat and killing all of those helpless cats? So many and in such a brutal, horrifying way? No normal kid could do this, no way.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Martha Anne View Post
I know what you mean...but using a baseball bat and killing all of those helpless cats? So many and in such a brutal, horrifying way? No normal kid could do this, no way.
Well, I certainly think so. Hard to believe they actually planned it. Like sat around discussing what to do on a Saturday, and that's what they came up.

But if you've been brought up with the belief that animal's aren't real...real in the sense of feeling real pain, real fear...

Still, even if you personally don't feel empathy for the cat, a case like this shows an astounding lack of empathy for the people who housed and cared for them. So yeah, I'd agree that these teens were sick inside on many levels.

I guess the answer is to attempt to reach the youth, especially in areas where the cultural message might be different.
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ParallelJJCat View Post
Well, I certainly think so. Hard to believe they actually planned it. Like sat around discussing what to do on a Saturday, and that's what they came up.

But if you've been brought up with the belief that animal's aren't real...real in the sense of feeling real pain, real fear...

Still, even if you personally don't feel empathy for the cat, a case like this shows an astounding lack of empathy for the people who housed and cared for them. So yeah, I'd agree that these teens were sick inside on many levels.

I guess the answer is to attempt to reach the youth, especially in areas where the cultural message might be different.

Oh, I think they knew the cats felt real fear: That's why they did it. To see the fear and suffering. I think they might have had one "leader" and the weaker ones followed, but I don't think that their behavior is simply a matter of how they were raised, ie the culture in which they were raised. I think it is worse than that. Much worse. To beat to death several cats - that takes something - a love of seeing a creature suffer.
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Old 01-16-2013, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Near Nashville TN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha Anne View Post
Oh, I think they knew the cats felt real fear: That's why they did it. To see the fear and suffering. I think they might have had one "leader" and the weaker ones followed, but I don't think that their behavior is simply a matter of how they were raised, ie the culture in which they were raised. I think it is worse than that. Much worse. To beat to death several cats - that takes something - a love of seeing a creature suffer.
Martha, I have to agree with you. At least one or more loved the pain and suffering he was causing. Loved to see the blood.

I wouldn't want any of my granddaughters to date a anyone with a past like that.
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Old 01-16-2013, 02:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by =^..^= View Post
Martha, I have to agree with you. At least one or more loved the pain and suffering he was causing. Loved to see the blood.

I wouldn't want any of my granddaughters to date a anyone with a past like that.
Think of dog fighting though. Or bull fighting, **** fighting, etc. etc. I honestly think some people involved in dog fighting DO love their 'champions' and even admire them. At the same time, they still see the dog as a lesser being whose pain does not measure up to theirs.

I guess I'm just wary of dismissing these teens as merely evil. Don't get me wrong...I think they were evil, full stop, but that evil may have come from outside as well as within. By only looking at the teens, we miss a bigger problem. Here's one of the quotes from a jury member...

"It was a stupid mistake, but we've all killed cats at one time or another when we were younger, you know, teased them, tormented them or kicked them around. We (the jury) didn't ever think the cats were worth more than $500, but we took the breaking and entering part pretty seriously."

One of the defendant's uncles asked a reporter if she had ever killed a cat. When she said no, he said that he had and described kicking cats around until they were dead.

Two of the boy's involved had previously killed and skinned a cat as a prank...the cat looked like one belonging to a relative, so the joke was making the relative believe they had killed his cat. The cat they killed lived on their mother's farm. You can take this as just another experience of how messed up and abhorrent the boys were, but no one who saw them parading this dead cat reported it.

In the town these boys grew up in there was something badly wrong, and I don't think such a culture is too terribly rare. That doesn't mean their actions don't rest squarely on their shoulders, but the parents and neighbors who laughed off such behavior and participated themselves in other acts of cruelty are no better. There's a bigger picture here and it's truly ugly.
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Near Nashville TN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParallelJJCat View Post
Think of dog fighting though. Or bull fighting, **** fighting, etc. etc. I honestly think some people involved in dog fighting DO love their 'champions' and even admire them. At the same time, they still see the dog as a lesser being whose pain does not measure up to theirs.

I guess I'm just wary of dismissing these teens as merely evil. Don't get me wrong...I think they were evil, full stop, but that evil may have come from outside as well as within. By only looking at the teens, we miss a bigger problem. Here's one of the quotes from a jury member...

"It was a stupid mistake, but we've all killed cats at one time or another when we were younger, you know, teased them, tormented them or kicked them around. We (the jury) didn't ever think the cats were worth more than $500, but we took the breaking and entering part pretty seriously."
What the hell was wrong with the prosecutor that he allowed such people on the jury? You don't select jurors against the death penalty in a death penalty case. This is infuriating.

Quote:
One of the defendant's uncles asked a reporter if she had ever killed a cat. When she said no, he said that he had and described kicking cats around until they were dead.
Sickening. So because he kicked cats to death he felt there was nothing wrong with his nephew doing the same thing.

Quote:
Two of the boy's involved had previously killed and skinned a cat as a prank...the cat looked like one belonging to a relative, so the joke was making the relative believe they had killed his cat. The cat they killed lived on their mother's farm. You can take this as just another experience of how messed up and abhorrent the boys were, but no one who saw them parading this dead cat reported it.
That's the mindset you often find in rural areas.

Quote:
In the town these boys grew up in there was something badly wrong, and I don't think such a culture is too terribly rare. That doesn't mean their actions don't rest squarely on their shoulders, but the parents and neighbors who laughed off such behavior and participated themselves in other acts of cruelty are no better. There's a bigger picture here and it's truly ugly.
I believe more cats died at the hands of man than by any predator out there.

Do you know, since being online and learning things I never heard of before, I'm losing my faith....
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by =^..^= View Post
What the hell was wrong with the prosecutor that he allowed such people on the jury? You don't select jurors against the death penalty in a death penalty case. This is infuriating.

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Sickening. So because he kicked cats to death he felt there was nothing wrong with his nephew doing the same thing.

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That's the mindset you often find in rural areas.



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I believe more cats died at the hands of man than by any predator out there.

Do you know, since being online and learning things I never heard of before, I'm losing my faith...
.

"Amazing Grace...What a wretch am I"

We humans are worse than we like to think we are - and sometimes better, too.


Please educate me. I have never lived in a rural area. Why is it any different than in urban areas - in terms of brutality, I mean? Because of the way farm animals are killed and often forced to live in less than good circumstances? Why is it?
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