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Old 02-16-2017, 02:02 PM
 
11,188 posts, read 19,350,872 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuilterChick View Post
Thank you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by puginabug View Post
However, the amputation of toe digits called declawing is not natural. It's not something that happens in nature.

And I'm willing to bet your co-worker didn't cut off his two fingers intentionally. Same with your hypothetical disabled armless person.

Neutering an animal causes minimal pain and it helps minimize the overpopulation of dogs and cats.

FYI, my cat is not declawed, and he doesn't kill hundreds of birds and mice. He doesn't go outside.


Seriously, the things people come up with. Imagine comparing deliberately amputating a cat's toe ends to save a couch with "nature". Ludicrous.

Yes, and spaying and neutering also provides health benefits, both physical and psychological, to the cat.

It's another one of those ridiculous arguments people come up with that shows they have no idea what they are talking about. Just trying to wind us up now doubt. Pssshh..

As for the bird and rodent killing, humans are by far the biggest killer of song birds, not to mention all other wildlife species, and without roaming cats there are many places that would be overrun with rats and uninhabitable by people because of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jencam View Post
I would never compare the two, I was saying my kitty basically says 'ouch!' when I do that. 'A bit of a sting' is the same thing as 'a tiny bit of pain'. Lord.

The point being that they do not hide all pain! Some vaccinations sting when the liquid goes in and kitties react to that pain. They don't hide it.

I only had one with never a reaction and it's because the poor thing was so petrified of strangers that she froze in the hands of the Vet or techs. My other cats react. Hey, hoomins! This is no good!

I had begged my friend not to declaw her cat and I read articles about how to tell if they are having pain and I'm sorry to disappoint you, but she never showed any signs of it. (Maybe at first - but I wasn't there for that).

She also showed no signs of problems with walking or balance or jumping or anything. 19 years is a long time for those things to accumulate and if what you said is true for every cat signs of that accumulation would have been evident.
No, because, as I have said repeatedly, cats hide pain. I'm sure that cat, and your Princess suffered. But they bore it stoically, and hid it well, as cats do.

You are indeed comparing a needle stick with the life long pain of living with amputated toes. A needle stick is not the same thing as chronic long enduring pain that makes a cat feel vulnerable. A cat REACTS to the needle stick. She instinctively hides the chronic pain or illness that makes her vulnerable to predators.

I assure you a cat reacts to the initial pain of the amputations also. They often scream for hours. They thrash and rip at their bandages.

You don't seem able to understand the concept of chronic pain.
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Old 02-16-2017, 02:46 PM
 
965 posts, read 930,077 times
Reputation: 1928
Quote:
Originally Posted by catsmom21 View Post
I assure you a cat reacts to the initial pain of the amputations also. They often scream for hours. They thrash and rip at their bandages.

You don't seem able to understand the concept of chronic pain.
They actually jerk WHILE UNDER ANESTHESIA! Before the even wake up.... and I now believe some people will not ever be able to understand chronic pain. Or.... they just want to be right so badly that they can't see that it hinders actual free thought.

I find it unfortunate that we have to make a law to make it illegal because some people want to ARGUE FOR the right to amputation to protect FURNITURE! Yep I feel the same way about docking and cropping, especially because they don't even protect poor, precious furniture....

As long as one (animal loving) person SWEARS their cat was not ever in pain, or swears that AR activists are behind this, or compares them to wild, big cats we will continue to have to pass laws. Or swears that people opposing this "procedure" are all AR activists who think cats who have been subjected to amputation would be better off dead, that will keep us at a stand-off.

Ridiculous to have to have laws against amputation, disgusting really... use your head people.
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Old 02-16-2017, 04:01 PM
 
11,188 posts, read 19,350,872 times
Reputation: 23931
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplepeace View Post
They actually jerk WHILE UNDER ANESTHESIA! Before the even wake up.... and I now believe some people will not ever be able to understand chronic pain. Or.... they just want to be right so badly that they can't see that it hinders actual free thought.

I find it unfortunate that we have to make a law to make it illegal because some people want to ARGUE FOR the right to amputation to protect FURNITURE! Yep I feel the same way about docking and cropping, especially because they don't even protect poor, precious furniture....

As long as one (animal loving) person SWEARS their cat was not ever in pain, or swears that AR activists are behind this, or compares them to wild, big cats we will continue to have to pass laws. Or swears that people opposing this "procedure" are all AR activists who think cats who have been subjected to amputation would be better off dead, that will keep us at a stand-off.

Ridiculous to have to have laws against amputation, disgusting really... use your head people.

Yes, I have seen videos of that myself. Videos of an actual cat toes amputation and the way the cat reacts, not only under deep anesthesia, but with local pain killer injected into each toe before hand. The paw jerks and draws away as the toe is cut off.

But "Dr." Nelson of the NJVMA would have us believe that declawing is not painful to the cat. Never mind the long term effects.
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Old 02-16-2017, 04:14 PM
 
965 posts, read 930,077 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catsmom21 View Post
Yes, I have seen videos of that myself. Videos of an actual cat toes amputation and the way the cat reacts, not only under deep anesthesia, but with local pain killer injected into each toe before hand. The paw jerks and draws away as the toe is cut off.

But "Dr." Nelson of the NJVMA would have us believe that declawing is not painful to the cat. Never mind the long term effects.
I figured there had to be videos somewhere, but I have never looked (seen enough for a lifetime). I used to work for vets, and saw it happen every time. Back then they sometimes would use guillotine nail clippers. I was so horrified I asked why they jumped/jerked, and they said it was that they didn't want to put them too far under because the anesthesia would be too dangerous. Still doesn't make sense, because I never saw a dog or cat being spayed or neutered jerk, jump, or react at all, not once.

It makes me sick every time I think about that, or dewclaws, and tails cut off yorkies etc... at 3 days of age with no anesthesia....
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Old 02-16-2017, 05:27 PM
 
21,108 posts, read 13,414,767 times
Reputation: 19717
Quote:
Originally Posted by catsmom21 View Post






Seriously, the things people come up with. Imagine comparing deliberately amputating a cat's toe ends to save a couch with "nature". Ludicrous.

Yes, and spaying and neutering also provides health benefits, both physical and psychological, to the cat.

It's another one of those ridiculous arguments people come up with that shows they have no idea what they are talking about. Just trying to wind us up now doubt. Pssshh..

As for the bird and rodent killing, humans are by far the biggest killer of song birds, not to mention all other wildlife species, and without roaming cats there are many places that would be overrun with rats and uninhabitable by people because of it.



No, because, as I have said repeatedly, cats hide pain. I'm sure that cat, and your Princess suffered. But they bore it stoically, and hid it well, as cats do.

You are indeed comparing a needle stick with the life long pain of living with amputated toes. A needle stick is not the same thing as chronic long enduring pain that makes a cat feel vulnerable. A cat REACTS to the needle stick. She instinctively hides the chronic pain or illness that makes her vulnerable to predators.

I assure you a cat reacts to the initial pain of the amputations also. They often scream for hours. They thrash and rip at their bandages.

You don't seem able to understand the concept of chronic pain.
I understand it perfectly well and it's why I would never de-claw a cat. For anything. I'm saying not every cat suffers that and you repeating it over and over doesn't make it true.

People and animals both can adapt to deformities and trauma pain-free. I simply refuse to roll the dice on something so severe likely to result.

you don't convince people with lies. When people have observed cats being perfectly find they dismiss everything you say because it's so exaggerated.

This is similar to people not getting help with better foods because Raw is being pushed so hard. Not everyone wants to stand up and argue, they just retreat because they aren't getting the help they need.

That is what I did when I was on a cat food forum and no one would help me pick a better dry food. It isn't helpful to say 'there is no good dry' even if that is true, because there are degrees.

My Evolve dry food is clearly better than Dollar store brand. Or even Purina products. My current cat had the runnies from eating cheap dry, so now all the strays eat Evolve too.

(He was a stray eating my cheap offerings to strays).
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Old 02-16-2017, 05:43 PM
 
Location: In The South
6,552 posts, read 4,700,617 times
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Personally, my distaste for declawing comes from working for a couple of years at a veterinarian's office cleaning kennels, cleaning the office, cleaning up after surgeries. I was dumbfounded the first time I had to clean up after a declaw--the actual whole first joint was there in the drape to be thrown out. Ugh.

I also cleaned the cat cages as needed, including post surgicals. Every cat I saw post declaw would pick up each paw to give it a rest from standing on it, one side, then the other, over and over. Almost like when they knead.

Nothing anyone can tell me will convince me those cats were not in pain.
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Old 02-16-2017, 06:11 PM
 
21,108 posts, read 13,414,767 times
Reputation: 19717
Quote:
Originally Posted by puginabug View Post
Personally, my distaste for declawing comes from working for a couple of years at a veterinarian's office cleaning kennels, cleaning the office, cleaning up after surgeries. I was dumbfounded the first time I had to clean up after a declaw--the actual whole first joint was there in the drape to be thrown out. Ugh.

I also cleaned the cat cages as needed, including post surgicals. Every cat I saw post declaw would pick up each paw to give it a rest from standing on it, one side, then the other, over and over. Almost like when they knead.

Nothing anyone can tell me will convince me those cats were not in pain.
No argument about that part. When it's done it is surely agony and I can't imagine how people don't even think twice about it. Some do not even ask or research anything which I find insane. No one gets surgery on themselves w/o knowing risks vs benefits and what kind of pain they are likely to have and so forth.
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Old 02-16-2017, 07:13 PM
 
11,113 posts, read 19,417,110 times
Reputation: 10172
Quote:
Originally Posted by puginabug View Post
Personally, my distaste for declawing comes from working for a couple of years at a veterinarian's office cleaning kennels, cleaning the office, cleaning up after surgeries. I was dumbfounded the first time I had to clean up after a declaw--the actual whole first joint was there in the drape to be thrown out. Ugh.

I also cleaned the cat cages as needed, including post surgicals. Every cat I saw post declaw would pick up each paw to give it a rest from standing on it, one side, then the other, over and over. Almost like when they knead.

Nothing anyone can tell me will convince me those cats were not in pain.

OMG that is so pathetic. (I could not work for a vet that declaws, and see helpless pets in pain like that....)
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Old 02-17-2017, 01:37 PM
 
Location: southern kansas
9,127 posts, read 9,247,842 times
Reputation: 21292
Quote:
Originally Posted by stockwiz View Post
LOL.. hell hath no fury like the anti-declawing brigade. lol Those same cats if left to their own devices would kills hundreds of birds and mice.. forget about the rest of nature and how a lion tears a zebra apart to get a meal, etc.. and we're worried about a few digits being cut off. These people would rather have the cats put to sleep than put them in a nice home where the owner might want them declawed. News flash.. nature is and always has been cruel. A disabled person who loses an arm adapts and can live a fine, pain free life.. it's all about mental attitude, and animals don't even have sentience. A co-worker is missing 2 fingers and has no pain and lives just fine. It's really mind over matter when it comes to a lot of life's circumstances.. you can let a situation bother you or you can suck it up and have a good attitude. Animals just live in the moment.. they don't have some regret over their owner's declawing. Stop humanizing them. Then they go and defend spaying and neutering.. you're taking away their sex drive! How cruel! Imagine if we removed all human's sex drive at birth... anyways I'll shut up now.
There are certain times when that may not be such a bad idea.
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Old 02-17-2017, 01:49 PM
 
2,709 posts, read 6,289,790 times
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Old thread and I don't know when it re-started, and I haven't delved too far back in the responses, but...as an alternative to de-clawing, do fellow cat-owners find that trimming nails on a regular basis is effective?

When I think of "de-clawing," I think the purpose behind it is to limit the cat's destructiveness of furniture and other shreddable items, and perhaps to keep it from climbing. Also, of course, cat claws are sharp!

When I got Olivia, I knew I didn't want to de-claw her, but at the same time, I WAS worried for my possessions. The vet suggested that I handle her paws regularly and trim her claws, which is what I do. Every weekend, I nudge her out of a doze and, while she's languorous, snip the tips off all her claws. She DOES pick at the carpet a little (but never in the same spot), but she does not claw the furniture. She does TRY to climb the drapes, so we've had to ball them up to lift them off the ground.

Long story short, I've been really pleased -- knock on wood -- with how effective claw-trimming has been for us. (It also helps that she's just sweet as can be and doesn't scratch me ever. Good kitty.)
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