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But I do agree that there should be more TNR (trap, neuter, return) programs for feral cats.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way in which its animals are treated. -Gandhi
So the life that you -prevent- by spaying and neutering cats, is that precious to you, or not? Since - as you say yourself - either all life is precious or none is.
If those are the only two options, I pick none. Thankfully, those aren't the only two options.
Also, Hopes - your math is SEXY. Can't rep you again for awhile but pretend I did
Also, Hopes - your math is SEXY. Can't rep you again for awhile but pretend I did
LOL Really? Any math that averages out to 57,000 kittens annually per TWO cats is obviously way off base. I realize Hopes used the 400,000 in 7 years number provided, but it wouldn't be too much surprise that the HSUS math is wacko.
The 60 million number if correct is not going to grow anywhere near as fast as any wild exponential expansion calculation due to the inherent mortality rate among adult feral cats, not just kittens. Not to mention the number of sterilizations that do happen, etc.
I have a number of thoughts on this and while I suppose we have already turned this into a typical "What to do with feral cats" thread with the usual arguments, I'm not sure we should continue it like that. Although, then again, I guess if you're going to argue whether or not this guy should just shoot the kittens, well, maybe it does fit for supporting that argument.
LOL Really? Any math that averages out to 57,000 kittens annually per TWO cats is obviously way off base. I realize Hopes used the 400,000 in 7 years number provided, but it wouldn't be too much surprise that the HSUS math is wacko.
The 60 million number if correct is not going to grow anywhere near as fast as any wild exponential expansion calculation due to the inherent mortality rate among adult feral cats, not just kittens. Not to mention the number of sterilizations that do happen, etc.
I acknowledged it was an exaggeration and very inaccurate. The point was to show how unrealistic it is to think these specific feral kittens would have been adopted. The only thing unique about them compared to all of the other feral kittens out there is that these ones got shot and there is a story in the media about them. That's the only way any of us know they even existed.
If this story motivates 44.7 million cat owners to rush out and adopt a feral kitten, that would be great. Sadly, we all know that isn't going to happen. People like to be outraged without having to be part of the solution. They will more likely to become part of the problem via being inspired to feed more ferals without having any intentions of trying to catch them to be spayed or neutered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg42
Although, then again, I guess if you're going to argue whether or not this guy should just shoot the kittens, well, maybe it does fit for supporting that argument.
Exactly my point. This isn't someone who works for animal friends or the humane society. He works for the city pound. It's highly unlikely a more humane death was waiting for them if he had taken them to the "shelter." They aren't even required by law to wait to see if someone claims ferals. If the city contracts out animal control that is in this business for a profit, I guarantee they wouldn't have used costly medication to put each feral kitten peacefully to sleep. Animal control views ferals as rodents.
I acknowledged it was an exaggeration and very inaccurate. The point was to show how unrealistic it is to think these specific feral kittens would have been adopted. The only thing unique about them compared to all of the other feral kittens out there is that these ones got shot and there is a story in the media about them. That's the only way any of us know they even existed.
If this story motivates 44.7 million cat owners to rush out and adopt a feral kitten, that would be great. Sadly, we all know that isn't going to happen. People like to be outraged without having to be part of the solution. They will more likely to become part of the problem via being inspired to feed more ferals without having any intentions of trying to catch them to be spayed or neutered.
Exactly my point. This isn't someone who works for animal friends or the humane society. He works for the city pound. It's highly unlikely a more humane death was waiting for them if he had taken them to the "shelter." They aren't even required by law to wait to see if someone claims ferals. If the city contracts out animal control that is in this business for a profit, I guarantee they wouldn't have used costly medication to put each feral kitten peacefully to sleep. Animal control views ferals as rodents.
The thing is, a kitten is not really feral for good even if born to a feral mother. If handled early by humans a kitten is adaptable. It is subject to being handled because they haven't yet learned to avoid that sort of contact. Past a certain point this is a feral cat in the making, sure (making it less likely it would ever take up with humans), but before that it is not truly irreparably feral. So I wasn't suggesting people would easily adopt feral kittens. I'm suggesting that if you catch them and hold them, they will be adopted because people adopt kittens period. If you're talking adult cats it's a different matter, but kittens, below a certain age, there isn't going to be a major difference in their source. Defending it by going back to "these specific kittens" is silly when you're in the midst of making big generalizations with bad statistics about feral cats in general.
Anyway, even leaving all that aside, we all know that the only thing that makes this story in any way unusual is the shooting. That doesn't make it any more appropriate. And suggesting there wasn't a more humane way of doing it won't stop people's emotional reactions as far as shooting a kitten. No matter what the reality, it's always going to SOUND worse than other alternatives. It wouldn't have made the news I guess if he had simply taken them away first. How hard could that have been?
But hey, it's Ohio. They don't have any standards for what is appropriate, do they?
Anyway, even leaving all that aside, we all know that the only thing that makes this story in any way unusual is the shooting. That doesn't make it any more appropriate. And suggesting there wasn't a more humane way of doing it won't stop people's emotional reactions as far as shooting a kitten. No matter what the reality, it's always going to SOUND worse than other alternatives. It wouldn't have made the news I guess if he had simply taken them away first. How hard could that have been?
I think that's the thing that bothers me. I don't like that people would rather not be aware. It would have been better if he had taken them away. Then nobody would have known. But the end result would have been shot kittens. I know it sounds worse than the alternatives even when it isn't. I just wish people would be more open to truly understanding what is happening out there.
I read an article tonight about feral cats and dogs. The estimate for both is 100,000,000. I'll assume that means there are 40,000,000 feral dogs. Dogs are a big problem because they attack people, but that's an aside. It highlighted one many who had dedicated his life to rehabilitating feral dogs to become household pets. He has done 5,000 so far. That seems like a big number until you realize there are 40,000,000 of them out there. And there was a town at Reservation that had a population of approximately 22,000 people with 4,000 feral dogs.
My point is if people realized the magnitude of the problem, maybe they would be motivated to do something about it. Brushing it under the rug via wishing he had taken the kittens away to kill them so it wouldn't end up in the media so nobody would have to think of this horrific thing happening sits wrong with me. Maybe I'm weird, but this thread motivated me to consider adopting a kitten as a companion for my hound.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg42
But hey, it's Ohio. They don't have any standards for what is appropriate, do they?
I read an article tonight about feral cats and dogs. The estimate for both is 100,000,000. I'll assume that means there are 40,000,000 feral dogs. Dogs are a big problem because they attack people, but that's an aside. It highlighted one many who had dedicated his life to rehabilitating feral dogs to become household pets. He has done 5,000 so far. That seems like a big number until you realize there are 40,000,000 of them out there. And there was a town at Reservation that had a population of approximately 22,000 people with 4,000 feral dogs.
I wonder how they come to that number? This is in the US alone I assume? I mean, 60 million feral cats, even that number seems a little suspect to me but I could believe it depending upon source (i.e. not cat-hating bird people, etc etc. ) Cats are solitary by nature and although will live in "feral colony" to a degree they won't be interested in people except in cases where people are providing them with food or such. 40 million feral DOGS? That one is tough to take, because feral dogs would naturally be pack animals and would consider attempting to take down something large. If there are 40 million feral dogs there should be news about attacks pretty often shouldn't there? I mean, this is off the top of my head without reading any new info, but that seems bizarre. Amazing that a guy rehabbed 5000 feral dogs. That is a big number for one person, regardless of it possibly being only a small dent in the problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopes
My point is if people realized the magnitude of the problem, maybe they would be motivated to do something about it. Brushing it under the rug via wishing he had taken the kittens away to kill them so it wouldn't end up in the media so nobody would have to think of this horrific thing happening sits wrong with me.
Hm. I could see that. But I don't think this type of story really brings the magnitude of the problem into focus. It did for YOU, and that's good. But without specific focus on that, it won't do so for very many people. Specific stories about the overall magnitude of the problem would do more I suspect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopes
Maybe I'm weird, but this thread motivated me to consider adopting a kitten as a companion for my hound.
Maybe? LOL You ARE weird but hey that's great. Get a kitten! Just be prepared for WORK. A kitten is work. It will get into everything. And pester the hound most likely.
I wonder how they come to that number? This is in the US alone I assume? I mean, 60 million feral cats, even that number seems a little suspect to me but I could believe it depending upon source (i.e. not cat-hating bird people, etc etc. ) Cats are solitary by nature and although will live in "feral colony" to a degree they won't be interested in people except in cases where people are providing them with food or such. 40 million feral DOGS? That one is tough to take, because feral dogs would naturally be pack animals and would consider attempting to take down something large. If there are 40 million feral dogs there should be news about attacks pretty often shouldn't there? I mean, this is off the top of my head without reading any new info, but that seems bizarre. Amazing that a guy rehabbed 5000 feral dogs. That is a big number for one person, regardless of it possibly being only a small dent in the problem.
The 60,000,000 number came from the Feral Cat Coalition. I don't see anything that indicates they are cat-hating bird people.
Yes, it's the US alone. I've learned many other countries have it much worse. I've read the worldwide estimate is 600,000,000. If we weren't doing something about this, the US would get just as bad as some of the worst countries.
The 100,000,000 feral dogs AND feral cats number came from National Geographic.
It's an interesting article. It does mention an incident when a pack attacked and devoured a child, along with stating that many people are bitten on the reservation. If you google "ferel dog reservations," you'll find many news articles on attacks by feral dogs. If you google "feral dog attack," you'll find others. What's happening in Mexico City could be our future if we don't continue to try to overcome the feral problem in the United States. (Mexico City has over 4,000,000 feral cats and dogs----that's just one CITY.)
I think we're just lucky to live in a region that designates significant funds to animal control. There are parts of the country where next to nothing is done, not just reservations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg42
Hm. I could see that. But I don't think this type of story really brings the magnitude of the problem into focus. It did for YOU, and that's good. But without specific focus on that, it won't do so for very many people. Specific stories about the overall magnitude of the problem would do more I suspect.
City Data posts are always at the top of google search results. Hopefully more people will read my posts!
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg42
Maybe? LOL You ARE weird but hey that's great. Get a kitten! Just be prepared for WORK. A kitten is work. It will get into everything. And pester the hound most likely.
I'm still thinking about it. I started a thread. It's in the general pet forum. My Persian had a great relationship with my Peek-a-poo. She was a runt and she imprinted the Peek-a-poo as her mother. I realize the chances of that happening again are slim. When we were at the vets, my dog finally met a cat that doesn't run away. The event validated to me that my dog doesn't want to attack cats that he chases. He's just fascinated and wants to meet and smell them. He only chases because they RUN. lol
What bothers me the most, is that the homeowner adamantly was fine when she was warned repeatedly, that the humane officer would be collecting and destroying the kittens. She pitched a fit that she was suddenly and involuntarily involved by having to witness their death. Was discharging a firearm within close proximity to residential areas encouraged? No.
They were being put to death anyways. This humane officer was either extremely negligent and lazy, or extremely upset, with a point to prove. I would like to think it was the later - but who knows.
Everybody likes hotdogs. Nobody likes to think how they're made.
This humane officer was either extremely negligent and lazy, or extremely upset, with a point to prove. I would like to think it was the later - but who knows.
I can't figure out how the latter would be less bad than the former....
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) Cats are solitary by nature and although will live in "feral colony" to a degree they won't be interested in people except in cases where people are providing them with food or such. 40 million feral DOGS? That one is tough to take, because feral dogs would naturally be pack animals and would consider attempting to take down something large. If there are 40 million feral dogs there should be news about attacks pretty often shouldn't there? I mean, this is off the top of my head without reading any new info, but that seems bizarre. Amazing that a guy rehabbed 5000 feral dogs. That is a big number for one person, regardless of it possibly being only a small dent in the problem.
