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Old 03-03-2014, 06:45 PM
 
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[quote=Martha Anne;33724826]
Quote:
Originally Posted by catsmom21 View Post
Martha when I went raw with my cats I joined a raw feeding forum and got all the guidance and support I could ask for. I really think that's the best way to go about it.




Great idea. I never thought of that! I am desperate because my beloved Orange Boy is slowly going to die from his IBD and his fur looks all dry and of poor quality now,etc. and I love him so much. ANd I want to feed my other cats right. But I have 16 cats to feed every day!!
Feed your Orange Boy separately from the other cats.

Start with commercially prepared frozen raw complete diets. I love PRIMAL. My cats have been allergy tested (Bicom method) and Primal and Stella and Chewys were recommended (in the specific protein sources they were not allergic to) because they were not allergic to PRIMAL and Stella and Chewy's formulations. I'm only feeding commercial raw and some canned, not preparing my own. I'm not organized enough to make home made, for now. <add> I would stay away from chicken. They were/are all able to eat beef, game meats and game birds.

Whether we want to admit it or not, and the Germans probably even have a word for it, we love some of our cats more than others. We care for them all to the best of our abilities and resources, but when something has to give, why should we lose precious [life] time with our favorites when we can tailor a diet to their needs.

Meeko had IBD and pancreatitis, then cancer. I knew he was anemic, but his IDEXX blood work said no.
Come to find out, IDEXX isn't sensitive enough for cats. Find a vet that looks at blood, does their own lab work, or sends it somewhere that a skilled person/technician does the work up.
My [new] vet did a on site PVC for anemia, Meeko was severely anemic. He showed me Meeko's blood, it was thin as water, poor boy. Same with Alfredo, plus he was so low in potassium his heart could have stopped at any moment, but IDEXX said he was fine.

Also, pain management is VERY important, my [new] vet actually cried with me while he examined Meeko the day I had him come to the house to possibly euthanize Meeko due to the constant pain. He gave him a shot of Tramadol and left buprenorphine for me to administer, by rubbing on Meeko's gums.

Last edited by leanansidhex; 03-03-2014 at 06:47 PM.. Reason: add
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Old 03-03-2014, 07:04 PM
 
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Martha, one of the most helpful things I was told when I started with raw was: you don't have to jump in all at once. Take it one tiny step at a time. Progress at whatever speed you, and your cat, are comfortable with.

As Leanan just said, you don't have to start feeding ALL the cats raw, now, or even ever. Just concentrate on Orange Boy for now.

Again, as Leanan has advised, you can start with a commercial raw product, just to get Orange Boy introduced to raw, then go further into it as far as you want, or are comfortable with.

Baby steps, Martha.

As for Tuft and their stand against raw, yes, they do have to kowtow to their funders, and that means they have to do and say what pleases the pet food companies who are supplying the money. And that means, just as it does with the AVMA, speaking against raw feeding.

But..you have a brain and can make your own choices. You want to help Orange Boy and there is a good chance getting him away from all the processed foods and additives will help him. It's certainly worth a try.
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Old 03-03-2014, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh area
9,912 posts, read 24,527,214 times
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This is a great link. Scroll down and notice the formulas for example for calculating dry matter basis of a canned food so it can be compared properly against other foods, etc.

FWIW I am currently feeding a somewhat fancier canned (from Weruva and sometimes Tiki Cat) and a freeze dried raw (Primal and sometimes Stella and Chewys) commercial foods.

The biggest deal IMO, more than raw, is to start with just the food being moisture containing. For many folks (I don't know about the OP) they are starting from dry so having them step off of that to wet is an improvement, even if it's cheap cans.

I'm not well versed on figuring out how to scale up feeding like this to so many cats without it costing a fortune. I have two cats. It already costs plenty! I have heard that it's possible to do homemade food more cost effectively than commercial food (cooked or raw) but I am not at the point where I am investigating doing this. I have too many other things not getting done already. It is something I may consider taking on in the future.

Good luck to you feeding 16 cats. Feeding that many with anything seems like a challenge to me! Some good info from the others on specifics.
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Old 03-03-2014, 08:02 PM
 
2,280 posts, read 4,480,458 times
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[quote=leanansidhex;33725406]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha Anne View Post

Feed your Orange Boy separately from the other cats.

Start with commercially prepared frozen raw complete diets. I love PRIMAL. My cats have been allergy tested (Bicom method) and Primal and Stella and Chewys were recommended (in the specific protein sources they were not allergic to) because they were not allergic to PRIMAL and Stella and Chewy's formulations. I'm only feeding commercial raw and some canned, not preparing my own. I'm not organized enough to make home made, for now. <add> I would stay away from chicken. They were/are all able to eat beef, game meats and game birds.

Whether we want to admit it or not, and the Germans probably even have a word for it, we love some of our cats more than others. We care for them all to the best of our abilities and resources, but when something has to give, why should we lose precious [life] time with our favorites when we can tailor a diet to their needs.

Meeko had IBD and pancreatitis, then cancer. I knew he was anemic, but his IDEXX blood work said no.
Come to find out, IDEXX isn't sensitive enough for cats. Find a vet that looks at blood, does their own lab work, or sends it somewhere that a skilled person/technician does the work up.
My [new] vet did a on site PVC for anemia, Meeko was severely anemic. He showed me Meeko's blood, it was thin as water, poor boy. Same with Alfredo, plus he was so low in potassium his heart could have stopped at any moment, but IDEXX said he was fine.

Also, pain management is VERY important, my [new] vet actually cried with me while he examined Meeko the day I had him come to the house to possibly euthanize Meeko due to the constant pain. He gave him a shot of Tramadol and left buprenorphine for me to administer, by rubbing on Meeko's gums.
Thank you for your advice but I am a very experienced caretaker of cats and know about separating the cats, know about a using a great vet and know about blood work. Orange Boy has had not just blood work, but also an ultrasound and x-ray by a leading, highly regarded specialist in reading ultrasounds for suspected IBD and pancreatitis (the test was neg for that) and lymphoma as well. (We went the whole hog <ggg> and also, by the grace of God, we had insurance for all of this, and will continue to have it for him.) Honestly, I do not seek advice on how to get help for finding the vet tests or care even though I appreciate your wanting to help. I just know that I have, here where I live, the finest vet care you can find for these diseases. But not necessarily for the feeding and I am learning a lot in this forum. Yes, Orange Boy was put on pain medication when he was admitted to the hospital for IV drip at the time he was presented for these symptoms. (I am experienced with doing subQ fluids, too, but he needed 24 hour IV fluids.)
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Old 03-03-2014, 08:09 PM
 
2,280 posts, read 4,480,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catsmom21 View Post
Martha, one of the most helpful things I was told when I started with raw was: you don't have to jump in all at once. Take it one tiny step at a time. Progress at whatever speed you, and your cat, are comfortable with.

As Leanan just said, you don't have to start feeding ALL the cats raw, now, or even ever. Just concentrate on Orange Boy for now.

Again, as Leanan has advised, you can start with a commercial raw product, just to get Orange Boy introduced to raw, then go further into it as far as you want, or are comfortable with.

Baby steps, Martha.

As for Tuft and their stand against raw, yes, they do have to kowtow to their funders, and that means they have to do and say what pleases the pet food companies who are supplying the money. And that means, just as it does with the AVMA, speaking against raw feeding.

But..you have a brain and can make your own choices. You want to help Orange Boy and there is a good chance getting him away from all the processed foods and additives will help him. It's certainly worth a try.

I see, OK. And HUGE thanks for the private PM, Catsmom. Sad that I finally am getting religion when one of my cats literally can't eat his food!

Oooo, good point. Poor Leanan, I wasn't listening to that enough even though I "read" it! He can start on raw first. Slow introduction, though. He's around 10 now. (See him on my FB page where I have posted most of my cats by now.)

I can honestly say that I treat all of my cats the same way, same exact quality of vet care and will do what I have for each one of them. But that is limited somewhat to my 11 inside and I am trying to get the chance to care for, medically, my outside guys. I have a knee injury and it's a lot of physical work so I have to go slow.
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Old 03-03-2014, 08:12 PM
 
2,280 posts, read 4,480,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg42 View Post
This is a great link. Scroll down and notice the formulas for example for calculating dry matter basis of a canned food so it can be compared properly against other foods, etc.

FWIW I am currently feeding a somewhat fancier canned (from Weruva and sometimes Tiki Cat) and a freeze dried raw (Primal and sometimes Stella and Chewys) commercial foods.

The biggest deal IMO, more than raw, is to start with just the food being moisture containing. For many folks (I don't know about the OP) they are starting from dry so having them step off of that to wet is an improvement, even if it's cheap cans.

I'm not well versed on figuring out how to scale up feeding like this to so many cats without it costing a fortune. I have two cats. It already costs plenty! I have heard that it's possible to do homemade food more cost effectively than commercial food (cooked or raw) but I am not at the point where I am investigating doing this. I have too many other things not getting done already. It is something I may consider taking on in the future.

Good luck to you feeding 16 cats. Feeding that many with anything seems like a challenge to me! Some good info from the others on specifics.
I am majorly not for dry food and that's why my food bill is astronomical. I feed "good" wet food: Weruva, Natural Balance, Wellness and admit I also use Friskies and Science Diet. ALL CANNED. And I cooked a whole chicken today and they ate that, etc. I am not one to give dry food.
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Old 03-03-2014, 08:42 PM
 
Location: In a house
13,250 posts, read 42,622,995 times
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I'd ditch the Science Diet. With the Friskies, stick with the pate and avoid the ones that involve gravy or sauce. I get a Friskies gravy-based can maybe once a month, only to get her out of a rut when she's being finicky. There are some weeks when she just really doesn't like whatever I'm giving her. The Friskies with gravy, just one can's worth, is always enough to break her through that so she can continue eating better stuff.

With the Weruva, see if you can find their BFF stuff. It's marginally lower calorie, marginally higher carb, and definitely less expensive than their usual stuff. Their pouches only come with tuna mixed with meats or mixed with salmon, so if you are concerned about them eating fish, you'll want to look for the cans only. I'm not concerned with my cat eating fish, because (as I've posted in the past), cats -do- eat fish in the wild, when they live in a geographical location where fish are available. A few wild cats that have a remarkably close relation with the domestic cat actually thrive on fish (the Fishing Cat is the most notable, not to be confused with the Fisher, which isn't any kind of cat at all).
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Old 03-03-2014, 09:04 PM
 
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I do feed some fish, but I limit it, not so much because of iodine or any other reason that people might say that it's species-inappropriate, but because of mercury. (It puts me in a quandary with my own diet too. So hard to figure out how to eat healthy, or feed pets healthy food these days!) OTOH, when I look at all the foods I feed, dry and wet (I feed both, heavier on the wet), almost all have chicken, regardless of what meat is named on the label, and I worry about getting something bad in their diet from so much of that also. At least I vary the brands, so the chicken is coming from different sources.
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Old 03-03-2014, 09:15 PM
 
Location: In a house
13,250 posts, read 42,622,995 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subject2change View Post
I do feed some fish, but I limit it, not so much because of iodine or any other reason that people might say that it's species-inappropriate, but because of mercury. (It puts me in a quandary with my own diet too. So hard to figure out how to eat healthy, or feed pets healthy food these days!) OTOH, when I look at all the foods I feed, dry and wet (I feed both, heavier on the wet), almost all have chicken, regardless of what meat is named on the label, and I worry about getting something bad in their diet from so much of that also. At least I vary the brands, so the chicken is coming from different sources.
Exactly the point. If you're giving your cat a variety of protein types, and switching brands fairly regularly, your cat will get what she needs. If you keep the carbs down, then even a couple tablespoons of dry kibble as "treats" isn't going to give an otherwise healthy cat any trouble. Obviously if the cat isn't healthy already, with IBS or other digestive disorder, you have to be more cautious about what you're feeding him.

My cat hates peas - I think it's more of a visual aversion to the color green. I thought she hated orange food too, but I discovered she actually likes one of the Weruva varieties with pumpkin bits. So I guess she just hates carrots and sweet potato. She loves mushroom pizza though. I don't ever give her any, but she's always trying to steal it when we're eating it at home.

We -both- like raw ground chuck, so a few pinches of it for kitty, and a few for me, are a weekly ritual when I'm making the meatballs
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Old 03-03-2014, 09:19 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh area
9,912 posts, read 24,527,214 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha Anne View Post
Unless I see proof otherwise, I respectfully reject your claim about Tufts. I can hardly believe that they simply push commercial food because they make money. I just have such a hard time believing that in this day and age. I know too many ethical vets to feel that all of the Tufts nutritionists would buy into doing that. I think that at least most of them have the same ethical standards that you and I would.
I've decided I will pick apart that memo a little more, because when I looked at it a bit more it seemed pretty weasel-ly. I have a hard time too with hearing that the ethics are out of whack, but the trouble is it has been shown over and over. While much of what any institution like Tufts does is quite good, the conflict of interest with grants coming from pet food companies can't be ignored. "Follow the money" as they say.

The memo is perhaps more interesting I think for the parts that they leave out. With that in mind, let's quote their memo on raw food and I'll make some comments that come to mind:

Quote:
At this time, there are no scientific studies showing any health benefits of raw meat diets.
Yeah, well, since you need money to do a study, and many grants might come from companies that don't have an interest in raw food, that's not too surprising. I don't know if any such study is under way with funding by other entity. One would think studying nutrition would be a good idea, and perhaps there are a few sources that are doing this without undue influence from pet food manufacturing. But commercial raw food has really taken off only more recently. For me personally, for example, I don't think I was aware of it before about 5 years ago.

Quote:
However, studies show that there are significant risks to feeding raw meat diets. ... In addition to these risks, recent scientific studies have shown that nearly all raw meat diets (whether commercial or homemade) are contaminated with bacteria, with between 20-44% of commercial raw food diets contaminated with Salmonella. ...
Blah blah blah. Two things I'm noticing here. One, commercial COOKED diets are often contaminated with bacteria as well. This is not unusual for commercial pet food. But apart from that, many of the studies cited are rather old. Commercial raw food processes have changed somewhat, even since 2006.

And the myths. I'm skipping number 1 because it seems to be covered already by the above stuff.

Quote:
2. "This is what animals eat in the wild" Wolves in the wild do eat raw meat (in addition to berries, plants, etc). However, the average lifespan for a wolf in the wild is only a few years. Therefore, what is nutritionally "optimal" for a wolf is not optimal for our pets who we hope will live long and healthy lives.
This is seriously ridiculous if they are trying to be scientific. Either they should be scientific or not. This is worded to suggest the reason wolves in the wild live only a few years is because they eat raw meat! Even a layperson can understand that correlation is not causation. Far more likely wolves in the wild live only a few years because of a combination of factors in the wild, with what they eat being a minor part of the short life span if any part at all. This is worded purposely to mislead.

Quote:
3. "Dogs and cats have short gastrointestinal tracts..."
Dogs' and cats' gastrointestinal tracts are not shorter compared to people when viewed in proportion to their smaller body size. Dogs and cats can become infected with Salmonella and other bacteria found in raw meat diets, just as people can (especially young, old, or immunosuppressed individuals)
This was addressed a little by another poster. The reason cited may be a myth, but there does seem to be something to the fact that these animals are not as susceptible to the bacteria as we humans are, at least as ordinary healthy individuals. Already ill pets would have a problem. Cooked pet food is often contaminated with salmonella and recalled. Probably sometimes it's not caught and not recalled. Most commercial raw is high pressure pasteurized or cultured to check for salmonella and similar bacteria.

Quote:
4. "Raw food diet ingredients are human grade"
Even meats purchased at the best of stores for people can be infected with bacteria so purchasing "human grade" meat does not protect against the health risks of uncooked meats (would you eat raw hamburger?). Also, be aware that the term "human grade" has no legal definition for pet food.
This is true, although the bit about hamburger is a red herring. You shouldn't be buying any preground meat to feed raw. You also should familiarize yourself with the actual legal definitions of what's in the pet food of all kinds. Some of them are more restrictive than others. Many allow for weaseling in some pretty nasty stuff.

Number 5 may be true about things surviving freezing. I don't know what freezing does or doesn't kill. Or freeze drying for that matter, which is the way I am using commercial raw right now. But then again these are mostly HPP beforehand which should kill this stuff. Any type of food could get bacteria back on it AFTER processing or cooking. And number 6 about bones, well, there are bones in the commercial raw I'm using, but it's ground up and freeze dried. It doesn't retain any structure that could possibly hurt their teeth. It's entirely soft. Even when people say "prey model" I don't think they're typically feeding entire prey with bones intact. It would typically be ground. You can in fact buy whole prey if you want though. Then the whole bones might be an issue.

Quote:
7. "Cooking destroys enzymes needed for digestion"
All the enzymes that dogs and cats (and people) need for digestion are already in the gastrointestinal tract. ...
Hm. Is this really what people argue about cooking? Cooking destroys nutrient value, that's what I thought. I never considered enzymes needed for digestion, LOL. Cooking destroys certain nutrients that are then added back to commercial pet food as supplements. Same with human food processed that way. They are ducking the question here.

Quote:
8. "Grains are added to pet foods as fillers"
Corn, oats, rice, barley, and other grains are healthy ingredients that contain protein, vitamins, and minerals; they are not added as fillers. There is no benefit of potatoes, sweet potatoes, peas, or oatmeal compared to other carbohydrate sources, unless the animal has certain specific health problems.
Well, these guys are talking in terms of dogs and cats both. Let's put this one directly in terms of cats. A cat has no use for carbohydrates in the amounts that they are put in all but a few commercial pet foods. When they throw up that crap about potatoes they are making the argument against the "grain free" pet foods rather than against raw food. It smells like they adapted this "myth" from a memo regarding grain-free food. Cats need protein and fat from meat. That's what they need. All this carb stuff is filler in cat food. Or if they want to object to the term "filler", it's certainly substandard ingredient for a cat. In a canned food adding carbs like this is completely unnecessary, which means it's done for cost reasons or marketing to ignorant humans reasons. Sounds like filler to me.

Quote:
9. "Most commercial pet foods contain harmful ingredients"
By-products. By-products are the animal parts that Americans don't typically eat, such as livers, kidneys, or lungs. ...
Their paragraph about by-products is true. But they conveniently take this "myth" and answer it such that by-products are the only ingredient that people think is harmful in commercial pet food. There are a number of others. And by-products can be a problem. They're ducking the question here in many ways.

Number 10 appears to be about balancing a homemade raw diet. It is a valid concern, albeit one that can likely be addressed by careful selection of ingredients or by purchasing a product to which you simply add the raw meat.

Quote:
• Feed a diet made by a well-known and reputable company - some criteria include: o Employing at least one full-time nutritionist o Having their own manufacturing plants o Conducting nutritional research so that continued improvements are made to their diets o Maintaining good internal quality control standards (eg, ingredients, end product, shelf life, accountability)
Funny how if you want all these it will apply probably only to the biggest pet food companies. And since some of them are part of a human food company, I wonder if that counts as their "nutritionist"? Of the very largest pet food companies the only one not also in the human food business is Colgate-Palmolive, parent of Hill's. And maybe the one that was very recently split off of the Del Monte company, but that was announced like last week, probably not finished yet. I guess P&G might not be much in food anymore (they used to make Pringles!) But the others are Mars and Nestle, giant food companies.

It is important to understand how much of pet food is just marketing though, including this part. Pet food companies can make claims that do not have to be substantiated. The rules for what can be said on the packaging are pretty lax. All that crap with breed specific, indoor, senior, etc formulas is totally marketing.

In the case of Weruva and Primal that I'm feeding I actually trust them on all those things as well, including that they own their plants. Except I don't know if either actually has a full-time nutritionist. I suspect not. I can live with it.

And I already mentioned a bit about the AAFCO before. It is a baseline but a very very low baseline. Do be aware of the things that are labeled as "supplemental feeding only". These are not considered to have all the required nutrients for a cat and could be lacking important stuff like taurine.

It's frustrating. The person whose name and credential on that document is not just a practicing vet who isn't keeping up with and didn't have a lot of schooling in nutrition. Dr Freeman is supposedly dealing with nutrition as her entire job. But because of the inbreeding that seems evident throughout the universe of pet care (as in companies cozy with associations and regulators, vets making money off selling the company products, etc, etc) even the organization that certifies her in vet nutrition can be suspect: Another ethical question surrounding Veterinary Organizations | Truth about Pet Food And this is far from the only example of ethical questions.

That is the LOOOONG of it. LOL What can I say, I can get long-winded.

In short, the reality seems to be that you can't even fully trust items put out even with a name like Tufts. For me at least learning more about cat food has moved in fits and starts over the last few years and I'm still not done. It is hard to know what information to trust, regardless of whose name on it, or what my own vet is telling me in his office, when it comes to info about cat feeding.

Last edited by greg42; 03-03-2014 at 09:28 PM..
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