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Old 03-03-2014, 12:59 PM
 
2,277 posts, read 4,094,889 times
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http://www.tufts.edu/vet/nutrition/r...meat_diets.pdf

I am confused. Many prominent people say it is good. I respect Tufts and DO NOT feel that they are simply fulfilling the mercenary wishes of pet food companies no matter what others say. I do not believe this! So, why do we feed raw it if is not safe? Allegedly, anyway. I was particularly taken by their claim as follows from this same site:

"7. "Cooking destroys enzymes needed for digestion"
All the enzymes that dogs and cats (and people) need for digestion are already in the gastrointestinal tract.
Therefore, additional enzymes from food are not required for digestion. In fact, enzymes are proteins so any enzymes
that are eaten get broken down by the body and have no benefit in the digestion process."

So, I would love to hear different opinions, based on some evidence. And yes, I DO like anecdotal evidence. Feel it should be heard! Thanks. I do not have a set opinion, yet.

Now, I just purchased Anitra Frazier's "The Natural Cat" which you all must know by now and on page 71 she says that there was a long term study that went from 1932 to 1943 which showed that animals given only cooked food that was "perfectly blanced", says the author, and these cats had a markedly reduced immune response which in 3 generations was reduced to zero. But what was that cooked food as compared to today's canned food? Etc.

Last edited by Martha Anne; 03-03-2014 at 01:19 PM..
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Old 03-03-2014, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Chicago
1,803 posts, read 1,954,816 times
Reputation: 4483
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha Anne View Post
http://www.tufts.edu/vet/nutrition/r...meat_diets.pdf

I am confused. Many prominent people say it is good. I respect Tufts and DO NOT feel that they are simply fulfilling the mercenary wishes of pet food companies no matter what others say. I do not believe this! So, why do we feed raw it if is not safe? Allegedly, anyway. I was particularly taken by their claim as follows from this same site:

"7. "Cooking destroys enzymes needed for digestion"
All the enzymes that dogs and cats (and people) need for digestion are already in the gastrointestinal tract.
Therefore, additional enzymes from food are not required for digestion. In fact, enzymes are proteins so any enzymes
that are eaten get broken down by the body and have no benefit in the digestion process."

So, I would love to hear different opinions, based on some evidence. And yes, I DO like anecdotal evidence. Feel it should be heard! Thanks. I do not have a set opinion, yet.
I don't believe it. Veterinarians aren't schooled on nutrition very much and are paid to push commercial dog food. Dogs will not get sick from raw food because they have shorter digestive tracts. I have feeding my dog raw food for months and it has been very good for him. He has not been sick once.
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Old 03-03-2014, 01:20 PM
 
45 posts, read 73,554 times
Reputation: 187
hahaha "To design customized diets for her patients, Freeman uses Tufts' expanded state-of-the-art nutrition center for animals. Created five years ago at Tufts' hospital for small animals, the center was upgraded substantially in February with support from Nestle Purina."

Tufts E-News: Pudge Pets On The Rise lol
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Old 03-03-2014, 01:29 PM
 
43,011 posts, read 102,375,590 times
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My vet is against raw diets and even cooked diets. She's not pushing prescription pet food either. She does not feel it's a healthy diet. She points to the fact that supplementation is necessary as proof.
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Old 03-03-2014, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
17,291 posts, read 11,299,465 times
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I think the concern that many vets would have (all conflicts of interest aside) is that some pet owners might not have access to a recipe that meets all of the pet's nutritional needs or might get a recipe from who-knows-where...

Commercial diets include supplements also. In fact they sometimes contain MORE supplements, as the processing of the ingredients destroys the natural nutrients.

The point is, if a person is going to feed raw, unless they get a recipe from a very knowledgeable and reputable source, they could be doing more harm than good. For a vet to acknowledge raw feeding as a viable option would be opening themselves up for a whole world of argument on which recipe from what source is to be trusted. No one has time for that. Nor would any of them wish to be held liable for health problems, so they're not going to just start handing out leaflets with a good recipe, then if an animal got sick for any reason the owner might try and come back on the vet.

The only sensible thing to do, from a vet's perspective, IS to recommend commercially available foods that are "certified" as complete. It only makes logical sense.

That doesn't mean that there is no such thing as a safe and healthy raw diet.
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Old 03-03-2014, 01:52 PM
 
Location: North Western NJ
6,591 posts, read 23,773,739 times
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vet schools are HEAVILY sponsonerd by pet food companies

personally I feed prey model raw, the difference I energy levels, coat and teeth health, skin health, and overall wellness, as well as how much they enjoy their food now is MORE than enough for me...
I DO NOT supliment with ANYTHING...they get whole prey model (minus fur/feathers and heads (just for mess issues) but including green tripe) they do not get ANY other suplimentation. ive been feeding like this for about 2 years now,

I WAS feeding a good quality kibble, first a rice baised, then I upgraded to grain free...when I whent grain free I saw SOME improvement but after some time working at the zoo where the carnivores were fed a primarily raw meat diet and ALOT of research, I switched mine...

my female Chinese crested had teeth so bad she was going to need most of them pulled, that was despite brushing...
within 6 months on raw her teeth look AMAZING, her last vet check the vet was amazed because all the teeth that needed pulling (and her red gums) are not PERFECT, no need for surgery anymore and her tear staiing around her eyes was gone in a month.

my male Chinese crested was having issues with his skin, no matter what protein we tried...
within 2 months on raw his skin is AMAZING, no more dryness, no more itching, he blackheads and spots gone!

my female dobe came to me in November, fed a diet of hills science diet low allergen food as recommended by a tufts vet for the past 6 months due to an "unknown protein allergy"
she arrived with dry flaky dandruffy skin and a dull coat and an ongoing yeast issue in her ears.
shes been on raw from the day she arrived, so about 3 months now...her dandruff is gone, shes no longer flaky skinned, she no longer itches, and her coat is BEAUTIFUL, the dullness and brittleness has compeltly transformed and shes glossy and beautiful. and all her yeasty ear issues have gone and ive done NOTHING special other than feeding her prey model raw.

in all 3 cats ive seen a huge difference in coat quality, apitite (no ore picky eaters) and energy level (no ore insane midnight off the wall zoomies, they have a much more balanced energy level)

ive had vets ADAMANTLY against it
vets absolutely 100% for it
and vets whove fully admitted that they do not have enough dietary training to advice either way or not on the raw issue...

I was a vet tech and was told exactly what the extent of "nutritional training" is in vet school, and it was made clear that the class is a 2-4 hour class, led by a represenstative form hills science diet or royal canin and that unless they specialize in nutrition SEPERATLY that's IT.
some vets do choose to take additional structured and independent training in nutrition but unles they do they don't recive anything more than what the HSD rep tells them...

and as my human dr says...
they cant make a profit from a CURE...

I DO think most home cooked diets are NOT nutritionally balanced...
I also think some of the raw diets people follow are NOT nutritionally balanced...

but I think a good correct PREY MODEL (feeding all possible parts of the animal including bone, muscle and organ (including green tripe) is, from MY experience, the best thing someone can do for their CARNIVORE.
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Old 03-03-2014, 01:55 PM
 
Location: North Western NJ
6,591 posts, read 23,773,739 times
Reputation: 9654
Quote:
Commercial diets include supplements also. In fact they sometimes contain MORE supplements, as the processing of the ingredients destroys the natural nutrients.

The only sensible thing to do, from a vet's perspective, IS to recommend commercially available foods that are "certified" as complete. It only makes logical sense.
COMPLETLY agree with these too...
ANY vet suggesting an none FDA approved food is opening themselves up should something bad happen to backlash, its SAFER to say "hey I suggest sticking to a FDA approved dog food" and cover there butts incase of sickness, food related issues, recal notices ect...

kinda of like using ANY drug off label, legally a dr (or vet) wont do it because even if it works/is the exact same thing....IF something goes wrong THEY are screwed...

its SAFER to not ruffle feathers, make waves or put yourself in potential reach of a backlash should something not turn out right...
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Old 03-03-2014, 02:04 PM
 
3,445 posts, read 5,669,322 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxywench View Post
vet schools are HEAVILY sponsonerd by pet food companies

.

Stop spreading lies about pet food companies...or making statements about Vet training or animal nutrition unless you have attended veterinary school.
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Old 03-03-2014, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh area
9,918 posts, read 23,099,178 times
Reputation: 5143
It's interesting that they take the idea that raw food isn't allowed in the hospital, which totally makes sense because it would take a different standard of food handling, and use that to harp on why nobody should be feeding raw food to begin with.

Tufts is generally a highly regarded place, no doubt. But I think pet nutrition still has a lot of difference in opinion and variations on what should and shouldn't be acceptable. And a LOT of influence from some very large entities that make pet food and thus have a lot to lose should recommendations change. The influence of industry may have little to do with this particular statement from Tufts. We'd certainly like to believe that. But the influence still holds a lot of sway over the vet industry as a whole.

The piece goes heavily into AAFCO stuff for example, which refers to the feed control officials of the various states. This is an agriculture position that deals with other types of feed than just for pets. And it is largely seen to be fairly deferential to the industry. An AAFCO statement saying it's complete is a very basic standard. It's certainly no end all be all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GrammyOf5 View Post
hahaha "To design customized diets for her patients, Freeman uses Tufts' expanded state-of-the-art nutrition center for animals. Created five years ago at Tufts' hospital for small animals, the center was upgraded substantially in February with support from Nestle Purina."
Indeed. Freeman is the author cited in the PDF linked in the OP. A big pet food company gives big money for facility. This conflict of interest is not to be brushed aside so easily it seems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopes View Post
My vet is against raw diets and even cooked diets. She's not pushing prescription pet food either. She does not feel it's a healthy diet. She points to the fact that supplementation is necessary as proof.
As in home prepared raw or cooked? The fact that supplementation is necessary is not proof of anything. Supplementation is necessary for nearly every cooked pet food there is! It's just that they put it IN THE FOOD before selling it to you. There's no magic to the commercial food that prevents it from needing the same supplementation as a home prepared food.

That's pretty basic stuff in terms of food in general. I would hold that up as an example of just how little grasp many vets have of nutritional issues. I mean, I'm far far from a nutritional expert and don't work in the medical profession but even as such a layperson I can understand that commercial foods are supplemented with vitamins and minerals and in the case of cat food, taurine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
I think the concern that many vets would have (all conflicts of interest aside) is that some pet owners might not have access to a recipe that meets all of the pet's nutritional needs or might get a recipe from who-knows-where...
Yes, this is very important. It is possible to get things very wrong if you go out on your own without having clear instructions of how to prepare such food.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
The only sensible thing to do, from a vet's perspective, IS to recommend commercially available foods that are "certified" as complete. It only makes logical sense.
You know Spork you just hit on something that somehow escaped me all this time. It's the CYA angle! Yes, of course. A vet recommendation for traditional commercial food has a cover your ass element, I suppose, why not? You stick with some of the most widely used things, the conventional wisdom, etc etc. Nobody can really criticize that because it's the same thing everyone else recommends.

The sad thing is that it's at least possible to recommend that a cat eat a diet that includes moisture in their food, and they often don't even do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha Anne View Post
So, I would love to hear different opinions, based on some evidence. And yes, I DO like anecdotal evidence. Feel it should be heard!
Well, some anecdotal evidence says xyz cat lives 20 years on dry Purina Cat Chow. Just as valid as any other anecdotal evidence right? I mean, that is what some people will stick to.
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Old 03-03-2014, 02:42 PM
 
4,676 posts, read 9,184,445 times
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It all makes me crazy. So I stop and think.

Wild cats don't eat raw food. They eat freshly killed prey. It's still warm. Sometimes still alive..

We can't even protect human grade meats and eggs from contaminates........would you eat it raw?

Cats don't eat rice, wheat, corn, potatoes, peas, carrots, blueberries... are any other such thing in the wild.

So find a food that best resembles what they do eat in the wild... with all the necessary vitamins and minerals.
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