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Your answer to him should have been “The City Market was actually owned by abolitionist. “
You’re giving me your opinion of what to take down, but that doesn’t mean everybody else shares your opinion. We’ve set the stage for opening it up to literally anything. It’s about setting precedents. Sure you’re appeased and I suppose to you that’s all that matters. No need to waste your time with any opposing viewpoint.
Look, I was born in, raised for years, and went to school in Charleston. Charleston is my blood. You chose to move here as an adult knowing the history. You're right, you don't have to share my opinion, but I feel like native concerns about precedents holds a little more weight.
Your first post, which seems like it was meant to be shade, you said "how can we tell the natives how to live?"...and yet you're trying to explain to a South Carolina native about the rights and wrongs of South Carolina history. You're telling me that I shouldn't care that much about Calhoun when we share a connection.
I really don't care if this causes a "cascade" of changes, it's not going to affect your life. You keep ignoring it: but Calhoun will be in a museum, so if you care that much, go visit him there. You're not a pigeon, so you'll be okay, I promise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100
And yes, we do have bigger problems. Everyday it seems like somebody is getting shot in North Charleston and everybody is like “that’s North Charleston for ya”. The articles barely make headlines. It’s like reading the traffic report.
Okay, and? We can multitask. Also, Tecklenberg doesn't have jurisdiction over North Charleston, so what is the point? I know exactly how to fix the problems in not just North Charleston, but the whole metro. I've made it a personal mission to help fix North Charleston's food desert problem, what are you doing for the community? Not being condescending, I'm seriously asking: how have you personally tried to change North Charleston for the better, since you say that's what "WE" need to focus on.
One way to help fix N Charleston's crime problem is less police, but yall aren't ready for that discussion, nor will anyone listen to it, even though it's backed in data and decades of evidence. You don't see police swarming around Mount Pleasant and yet they're a very safe community. Meanwhile police post up at Frankies Fun Park on Ashley Phospate. Ever think about why this is the case? Fixing Charleston's problems is not hard: but they won't be fixed with current attitudes from both metro Charleston and South Carolina. So while they try to get their s--t together, we can take down Calhoun.
All you're doing is using the cable news talking point of "why are you focused on statues when there's so much black on black crime." Black on black crime doesn't exist: it's just crime. And I doubt you're willing to dive deep into N Chas and fix it. Fixing it is easy, but people wont allow it because of their politics. Calhoun can be moved and N Chas can be safer at the same time. Not buying any of your vapid excuses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100
Somebody gets killed by a cop 1000 miles away and we have to tear down a 130 year old statue and protest for a month. Imagine if we put a fraction of that much energy into solving North Charleston’s violent crime problems.
I'm so sorry what happened to George Floyd has taken away your statues, pancakes, rice, flags, tv shows, and spirit of Nascar. It's almost like...all this isn't happening because of the incident itself...but rather...the incident unmasked ugly realities about America that people continued to ignore for decades and simply couldn't ignore anymore...
It's almost like...the protests, which are very American, are working and are bringing reform and change...like they worked in the 1920's, 1960's, 1990's and so on.
Target had stores burned and instead of whining about it, they listened to why that happened and now have committed to fixing it in the community...while selling clothes, pretzels, and rugs at the same time. Incredible that they're able to do that...
Look, I was born in, raised for years, and went to school in Charleston. Charleston is my blood. You chose to move here as an adult knowing the history. You're right, you don't have to share my opinion, but I feel like native concerns about precedents holds a little more weight.
Your first post, which seems like it was meant to be shade, you said "how can we tell the natives how to live?"...and yet you're trying to explain to a South Carolina native about the rights and wrongs of South Carolina history. You're telling me that I shouldn't care that much about Calhoun when we share a connection.
I really don't care if this causes a "cascade" of changes, it's not going to affect your life. You keep ignoring it: but Calhoun will be in a museum, so if you care that much, go visit him there. You're not a pigeon, so you'll be okay, I promise.
Okay, and? We can multitask. Also, Tecklenberg doesn't have jurisdiction over North Charleston, so what is the point? I know exactly how to fix the problems in not just North Charleston, but the whole metro. I've made it a personal mission to help fix North Charleston's food desert problem, what are you doing for the community? Not being condescending, I'm seriously asking: how have you personally tried to change North Charleston for the better, since you say that's what "WE" need to focus on.
One way to help fix N Charleston's crime problem is less police, but yall aren't ready for that discussion, nor will anyone listen to it, even though it's backed in data and decades of evidence. You don't see police swarming around Mount Pleasant and yet they're a very safe community. Meanwhile police post up at Frankies Fun Park on Ashley Phospate. Ever think about why this is the case? Fixing Charleston's problems is not hard: but they won't be fixed with current attitudes from both metro Charleston and South Carolina. So while they try to get their s--t together, we can take down Calhoun.
All you're doing is using the cable news talking point of "why are you focused on statues when there's so much black on black crime." Black on black crime doesn't exist: it's just crime. And I doubt you're willing to dive deep into N Chas and fix it. Fixing it is easy, but people wont allow it because of their politics. Calhoun can be moved and N Chas can be safer at the same time. Not buying any of your vapid excuses.
I'm so sorry what happened to George Floyd has taken away your statues, pancakes, rice, flags, tv shows, and spirit of Nascar. It's almost like...all this isn't happening because of the incident itself...but rather...the incident unmasked ugly realities about America that people continued to ignore for decades and simply couldn't ignore anymore...
It's almost like...the protests, which are very American, are working and are bringing reform and change...like they worked in the 1920's, 1960's, 1990's and so on.
Target had stores burned and instead of whining about it, they listened to why that happened and now have committed to fixing it in the community...while selling clothes, pretzels, and rugs at the same time. Incredible that they're able to do that...
You’re the one who said “black on black crime” I’m the one who just said “crime”. I don’t know how to fix N.Chas problems but I do know they need fixing and right now there’s more attention to those statues than the daily crime problems right up the street. Violent crime exist in areas of every political persuasion. I don’t think I’m going to be able to understand the logic of your priorities.
As for the police thing, when somebody shoots somebody, people usually call the cops. Stop shooting at each other and maybe they won’t have a reason to be there. There’s a crime problem yet the problem is the cops sent to respond to the crime problem? What does this have to do with statues?
Nobody can say the statue has harmed them in any way. However, the city seems to be preparing for a wave of lawsuits. Now we have more money being spent for something that wasn’t a problem to begin with.
I’m glad you think the protest are accomplishing something. Violent crime didn’t go anywhere, King Street is a disaster, we have graffiti in public spaces and now all of Marion Square is closed to the public. There comes a time when the empathy and solidarity turns to resentment and I know I’m not the only one feeling this way.
I see a common theme here, and it’s putting blame on anyone and anything else.
You’re the one who said “black on black crime” I’m the one who just said “crime”.
You tried the "what about Chicago?" deflection. Typical cable news mind tactic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100
I don’t know how to fix N.Chas problems but I do know they need fixing and right now there’s more attention to those statues than the daily crime problems right up the street.
Then maybe you should educate yourself. Stop saying "it needs to be fixed" if you have zero ideas on how that can happen. People are well aware of issues in North Charleston, and the inequality around metro Charleston as a whole. I can't believe i'm saying this for the 657th time, but you can be focused on multiple things at once. Tecklenberg has nothing to do with North Charleston. Talk to Summey. You're complaining about people being obsessed with a statue, yet you've given every excuse in the book on why it needs to be up, and still are, even though it's going to museum. Are you a pigeon forreal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100
Violent crime exist in areas of every political persuasion. I don’t think I’m going to be able to understand the logic of your priorities.
I didn't say anything about politics. But hey you were the one who brought up North Charleston. Why didn't you say metro Charleston? If there's so much violent crime in Mount Pleasant why didnt you bring them up too? Fallacy.
You know North Charleston has lower socio-economics, and that's the problem and what needs to be tackled. Like I said, I'm trying to develop a way to get fresh food and grocery for North Charleston residents who don't have the luxuries of Trader Joes, Publix, Whole Foods, Aldi, Sprouts, or even Walmart Market. I've been deep in N Charleston in the neighborhoods, I know the streets, I know the people who live there, I used to volunteer there, family church used to be there, and I was born in the city. N Chas means a great deal to me and I've researched what can be done to help it improve - and even without me, the city still has improved a lot. Crime has seen an uptick in N Chas, yet it's still a far cry from as recent as 2007.
What are you doing? Apparently nothing other than saying "someone needs to fix it." So I don't need your lecture when I am actually trying. I'm not one of those suburbanites who's afraid of N Chas and only goes there for a quick run at Tanger or the Coliseum before bolting back across the rivers.
Okay great, and? I didn't say we need to get rid of police, nor did I say they're doing a terrible job, but thank you for that cherry pick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100
As for the police thing, when somebody shoots somebody, people usually call the cops. Stop shooting at each other and maybe they won’t have a reason to be there.
And you don't understand how to stop people from shooting each other, even though it's a 99% chance youre older than me and should have so much empirical evidence by now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100
There’s a crime problem yet the problem is the cops sent to respond to the crime problem? What does this have to do with statues?
What did "infrastructure, flooding, and violent crime" have to do with statues?? Pot calling the kettle black.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100
Nobody can say the statue has harmed them in any way.
Presumptuous, sure whatever, but are you white? Because your priveledge is showing real hard. You don't even care to to empathize.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100
However, the city seems to be preparing for a wave of lawsuits. Now we have more money being spent for something that wasn’t a problem to begin with.
You're A. making broad assumptions, and B. making a mountain out of a mole hill. If we have "bigger things to worry about than a statue" then maybe you should stop telling me that and tell it to...idk...these imaginary people who are about to flood the city with unessessary lawsuits?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100
I’m glad you think the protest are accomplishing something. Violent crime didn’t go anywhere, King Street is a disaster, we have graffiti in public spaces and now all of Marion Square is closed to the public. There comes a time when the empathy and solidarity turns to resentment and I know I’m not the only one feeling this way.
Whaaaaa I'm sorry. It'll be reopened soon. The protests accomplished much across the country. Were you aware that Breonna's Law was passed? Were you aware of the other wave of reforms that have happened? Even Trump has said he wouldn't mind Kaepernick being in the NFL again. You think if there was zero protest, he'd suddenly have that change of opinion? Nope. The protests across the world have been bringing forth positive change that will help this nation, the same way they did in the 20's, 60's, and so on.
Graffati can be erased. I never condoned that, nor did I ever condone looting. I said protests. King Street was destroyed in Hurricane Hugo, and they fixed it quick. But oh no a few dozens crazies smash some windows and spray paint and now King Street will never be the same.
There's a P&C article from June 2nd that says "Businesses on King Street rebuilding, reopening, filing insurance claims after riots"...it's June 18th, why are you still complaining about this? Being a transplant trying to educate a native: maybe you should read up on the King Street riots of 1919, then continue telling me about King Street being a "disaster."
I see a common theme here, and it’s putting blame on anyone and anything else.
I see a common theme here, and it's a transplant being so upset about a statue of a dehumanizing racist coming down that they have to spend like 7 pages ignoring natives' thoughts on it and defend it by ignoring most of their points and cherry picking what can be warped or using whataboutisms to try to poke fallacies in their argument, rather than just admit that it coming down is better for black and white Charleston as a whole, and won't effect your life in any tangible way going forward because it will be a museum where it belongs.
You’re basically equating George Washington with Hitler. Good job.
Hitler’s name isn’t on anything only because he lost the war, it had nothing to do with how evil he was.
They can take all the people’s names off of everything and remove all statues of people as far as I’m concerned. But like Hitler, the Confederate soldiers and generals lost the war. Their statues need to go. Why should people hanging onto the history of a failed military and failed nation get their way over people who want a fresh start without such memorials towering over them? The history stuff is a cop out of people who are still in denial about the symbols of inequality that at least on some level make them feel in control, kind of like the memorials are their last card to play.
Nobody can say the statue has harmed them in any way. However, the city seems to be preparing for a wave of lawsuits. Now we have more money being spent for something that wasn’t a problem to begin with.
What does money got to do with anything? Gov is taking you money and using it to bailout big companies..... why you not complaining to them about money??
And how exactly will that help the plight of the African American Community?
You live in western NC, why do you care? Looking at your post history it seems you post an awful lot about politics, and you havent posted in the Charleston forum in 2020, if ever.
Did you just see a thread about confederate statues on the home page and decide to jump in? Because that's what it looks like.
This is who owns Marion Square: Washington Light Infantry and the Sumter Guard. They said they were against removing the monument, but that they were given an ultimatum and it’s going to happen.
- from a just-published P&C article
In that same article
Except that didn’t happen. The original statue was replaced because the people who commissioned it didn’t like it the quality of the work itself. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cha...dia=AMP%2bHTML
Tamika made up her own history. She’s motivated by an event that never existed.
It's true that the shorter monument wasn't demolished, but Black Charlestonians were constantly damaging it which is why the replacement was put on such a tall pedestal.
That’s the thing. Almost every brick in Charleston can be traced back to something slave related. Where do you draw the line? Slave owners that were politicians? Civil War generals? Their houses? Gravesites? What? Anything and anybody is remotely offended about? Since Columbus is such a bad guy, should Columbia get renamed? Washington owned slaves. Do we just look the other way for now and demolish everything in backwards order by date? We have our nation’s capital and an entire state named after a slave owner who’s views were probably not that much different from Calhoun’s. I don’t recall the city asking its citizens and they were apparently in a rush to do it. They’ll take forever mulling over an old abandoned warehouse facade from being torn down, but decided a 130 year old statue needed to go right now.
If this was such a long term plan, it’s either a crazy coincidence or they wanted to wait for the next racial flare up to act on it. Let’s not kid ourselves, this was indeed a knee jerk reaction.
As for repealing the Heritage Act, I can’t think of anything more divisive at a time when that’s the last thing we need. Charleston would go broke trying to pick and choose which history to keep and get rid of against a myriad of loosely affiliated activist who will never be appeased. Heritage Act is the perfect cover to leave it all alone and spend money on road infrastructure and flooding mitigation instead. No need to pick teams and make enemies when you don’t have to.
This place has so many more immediate concerns. This city’s monuments and statues sure as hell didn’t hurt it’s economy over the past 50 years.
I didn't mention repealing the Heritage Act but that's a good idea. These are local matters first and foremost so let localities decide what's in their best interests.
As for the rest, you're being willfully obtuse and disingenuous. I'm not going to repeat myself for the thousandth time, and just because you repeat lies doesn't make them true. I provide objective sources about the opposition to the Calhoun monument from the very beginning and you still call it a kneejerk reaction. That's not true. You don't get to create your own facts or reality. More recently, there were calls to remove the monument five years ago after the Mother Emanuel massacre, three years ago after Charlottesville, and now. And yes, advocates for the monument's removal made highly visible pushes to get that done in the wake of national events when the momentum is strong. That's the only way this type of change can happen in the Old South, whether you're talking about the Civil War, Selma, MLK's assassination (which was the catalyst for the passage of the Fair Housing Act), the Mother Emanuel massacre, etc. Changes like these, of any sort, rarely happen absent major events that involve bloodshed of some sort or major loss of revenue, or threats related to such.
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