Confederate statues to come down (Charleston, Wade Hampton: to buy, plantation, move)
Charleston areaCharleston - North Charleston - Mt. Pleasant - Summerville - Goose Creek
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Perhaps you might be more of a fan of Confederate Colonel William Holland Thomas? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Holland_Thomas
He was a white man but adopted Cherokee. Since the US didn’t allow Native Americans to own land he bought the land for them which is why they remain east of Mississippi despite the Indian Removal Act. He was their commander in the Civil War against Union troops.
I’d be against his statue solely because he’s from North Carolina and not Charleston.
Nothing is changing about Marion Square. You'll still be able to go there and do whatever it was you did there before. I didn't know you needed a statue to enjoy a park, just figured you needed grass.
/shrug
Marion Square isn’t owner by the city. Its quite possible (though remote) the owners who basically got strong armed by the city rope it off and make it a hotel. It ain’t like that land is worthless. Remote possibility but still possible.
What I got out of all this is that you pretty much justified looting and chaos as a positive thing.
Me in the post you replied to: "I never condoned that, nor did I ever condone looting." Please tell me how that is a justification. As you've done with every reply, you ignored my actual point. You're trying to paint me as some anarchist, but youre the one making downtown sound like a Syria warzone. I don't like antifa, but I don't like the KKK either, whos been caught posing as them /shrugs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100
Yes, this attitude bothers me. People were empathic and politicians started changing laws because a video of a cop sitting on some guy’s neck is pretty disturbing. Riots and looting and vandalism is just people taking advantage for their own gain out of pure greed or boredom and did nothing to further the cause. All good if insurance covers it. You ever file an insurance claim? What happens to your premiums afterwards? But hey, at least you got some free shoes or something. I hope the church you went to didn’t teach you this.
I don't know what you're going on about now, but protesters and rioters are two different things so. Church didnt teach me what youre talking about, but they did teach me not to throw a fit that a mad racists' statue is being moved to a museum where it will still be able to be viewed by the public.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100
I’m not the one deflecting here. If I see my neighbor’s house on fire and he’s watering his grass, I’m going to call him out. Me telling him where the fire is help. Yes I get your grass also needs to be watered, but priorities.
....what are you talking about. Now youre using the tactic of "im just going to bring up a bunch unrelated yet passable analogies until the original point gets lost." You succeeded because I don't see what a burning house has to do with anything I said. Why couldn't you just address my point directly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100
Violent crime is a huge deal. Police reform a bid deal, and statues from the 19th century shouldn’t even been on the list. The idea that we can only have a statue of saints or we’ll never succeed in life makes no damn sense.
You continue to not acknowledge anything I say so why are we still talking about this. You still have yet to answer my simple question of: why can't you look at this in a museum? To me, that makes no damn sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100
I know you have no desire to hear my perspective, even though everybody being united or at least on the same page is key to almost all our problems, but I am interested to hear your proposal to solve N. Charleston’s issues.
No, I do have a desire to hear your perspective, why else would I have been going back and forth with you for what seems like all week long now?
The problem is in the 7 or 8 or 9 pages, you will not A. answer my questions, B. acknowledge my points, C. acknowledge that you started this with saying transplants shouldnt be telling natives what to do - when you are the transplant and I am the native.
All you keep doing is ignoring the vast majority of what I say and instead respond with a whataboutism to try to put me in a trap to agree with you. Guess what? I did agree with you, many pages ago, that history shouldn't be erased. But taking down a statue and putting it in a museum is not erasing it.
I'm glad they didn't throw away the Hunley when they found it or knock down Fort Sumter. I'm glad Hunley in a museum and I'm still trying to see it, and I want to see Fort Sumter. Confederate or not, they're cool pieces of history, I've been to the spot where the Hunley was discovered. I'm not crying that it's not out in public display.
And when I made the point that the Hunley is in a museum, you tried to steer the argument away by saying "I'm sure someone is complaining about it." You keep making broad assumptions and treating them as fact. Even if someone is complaining about the Hunley, which I doubt it, what does that have to do with Calhoun also being in a museum? Charleston is building an AA Museum, it's going to have a lot of artifacts. Do you see me complaining that they're not putting those artifacts outside in the public? Of course you're not.
I'm only willing to hear your perspective if you're willing to hear mine, and you don't show that. Instead of hearing me out, you told me, a PoC native, a few pages ago that I should just get over it if I walk by it. So don't try that.
Marion Square isn’t owner by the city. Its quite possible (though remote) the owners who basically got strong armed by the city rope it off and make it a hotel. It ain’t like that land is worthless. Remote possibility but still possible.
I would be interested to see what easements and restrictions are placed on the site- I imagine in exchange for not paying taxes on one of the largest parcels in downtown Charleston, they receive substantial tax breaks and agreed to some pretty specific stipulations.
Me in the post you replied to: "I never condoned that, nor did I ever condone looting." Please tell me how that is a justification. As you've done with every reply, you ignored my actual point. You're trying to paint me as some anarchist, but youre the one making downtown sound like a Syria warzone. I don't like antifa, but I don't like the KKK either, whos been caught posing as them /shrugs.
I don't know what you're going on about now, but protesters and rioters are two different things so. Church didnt teach me what youre talking about, but they did teach me not to throw a fit that a mad racists' statue is being moved to a museum where it will still be able to be viewed by the public.
....what are you talking about. Now youre using the tactic of "im just going to bring up a bunch unrelated yet passable analogies until the original point gets lost." You succeeded because I don't see what a burning house has to do with anything I said. Why couldn't you just address my point directly.
You continue to not acknowledge anything I say so why are we still talking about this. You still have yet to answer my simple question of: why can't you look at this in a museum? To me, that makes no damn sense.
No, I do have a desire to hear your perspective, why else would I have been going back and forth with you for what seems like all week long now?
The problem is in the 7 or 8 or 9 pages, you will not A. answer my questions, B. acknowledge my points, C. acknowledge that you started this with saying transplants shouldnt be telling natives what to do - when you are the transplant and I am the native.
All you keep doing is ignoring the vast majority of what I say and instead respond with a whataboutism to try to put me in a trap to agree with you. Guess what? I did agree with you, many pages ago, that history shouldn't be erased. But taking down a statue and putting it in a museum is not erasing it.
I'm glad they didn't throw away the Hunley when they found it or knock down Fort Sumter. I'm glad Hunley in a museum and I'm still trying to see it, and I want to see Fort Sumter. Confederate or not, they're cool pieces of history, I've been to the spot where the Hunley was discovered. I'm not crying that it's not out in public display.
And when I made the point that the Hunley is in a museum, you tried to steer the argument away by saying "I'm sure someone is complaining about it." You keep making broad assumptions and treating them as fact. Even if someone is complaining about the Hunley, which I doubt it, what does that have to do with Calhoun also being in a museum? Charleston is building an AA Museum, it's going to have a lot of artifacts. Do you see me complaining that they're not putting those artifacts outside in the public? Of course you're not.
I'm only willing to hear your perspective if you're willing to hear mine, and you don't show that. Instead of hearing me out, you told me, a PoC native, a few pages ago that I should just get over it if I walk by it. So don't try that.
I think you missed my point and I don’t hold it against you. I appreciate that you appreciate the historical value of the Hunley. But it’s not you I’m worried about. After the Calhoun Statue was said to be sent to a museum (of course one wasn’t noted because this is a knee jerk reaction with no museum coordinated with), there was backlash because some people thought it should be melted down and destroyed. (I personally don’t find Calhoun all that interesting nor controversial and wouldn’t really care to see him in a museum for the same reason I wouldn’t want to see a Roman Goddess statue in London instead of Rome where it was taken from).
You seem somewhat reasonable but what you’re supporting isn’t a reasonable solution. The idea people are catering to is “all offensive history must be destroyed” but you’re stance is “well everything but obviously not the Hunley”. You’re the only person I’ve heard say that. There’s no guarantee of that given the current climate. It’s an arbitrary feeling you’re in favor of which isn’t universally shared. A few years ago I’d have no idea that Bill Cosby would be the reason we remove 80 year old Christmas songs from the playlist but that’s the knee jerk world we live in.
I’m 100% in favor of an African American museum. I like all history.
- Calhoun Street renamed, again (I think theres a proposal to rename it MLK St, but I'd like to see it put back to Boundary Street)
- Hampton Park renamed (do research on Wade Hampton)
- Wade Hampton Memorial removed (museum along with trash Calhoun)
- We need to revisit how we do these plantation tours, they are too romanticized
- Calling a residential neighborhood "plantation" doesn't make it sexy. I'd like to see that done away with. It's already been done in some places.
That's about it really that I can think of, 5 real changes I'd really like to see. Not that big a deal. Five things.
And speaking of "when will it stop?", did we ask this back in the 20th century when confederate statues, monuments, streets, and flags on state domes were going up left and right? Its not the end of the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledmonkey
A rather large chunk of the city is named after or has some tie to slavery if it's over 160 years old. For a long time Charleston prided itself on keeping the city historical. If we go that way that simply won't be the case. Especially since these groups are also clamoring to tear down Jefferson statues and i've even heard Washington.
I'm from Charleston so I'm aware of that. As I've said before, I don't want history erased. All I want is for the glorification of the confederacy to stop (even the founder of the SC Secessionist Party said stop), and I want these people put in the museum, even if the ocean is personally where I'd put it - but to fair you won't be able to get history that way, so let it be in a museum where you can still exercise your free American rights to see it.
Washington and Jefferson aren't relevant to Charleston.
I would be interested to see what easements and restrictions are placed on the site- I imagine in exchange for not paying taxes on one of the largest parcels in downtown Charleston, they receive substantial tax breaks and agreed to some pretty specific stipulations.
Before this I kinda worried they wouldn’t pull a Morris Sokol and sell out. Leases are great and all but when somebody offers millions in cash on the spot, it can be hard to walk away. Food and Wine Festival can be at the other park named after a slave holder.
- Calhoun Street renamed, again (I think theres a proposal to rename it MLK St, but I'd like to see it put back to Boundary Street)
- Hampton Park renamed (do research on Wade Hampton)
- Wade Hampton Memorial removed (museum along with trash Calhoun)
- We need to revisit how we do these plantation tours, they are too romanticized
- Calling a residential neighborhood "plantation" doesn't make it sexy. I'd like to see that done away with. It's already been done in some places.
That's about it really that I can think of, 5 real changes I'd really like to see. Not that big a deal. Five things.
And speaking of "when will it stop?", did we ask this back in the 20th century when confederate statues, monuments, streets, and flags on state domes were going up left and right? Its not the end of the world.
I'm from Charleston so I'm aware of that. As I've said before, I don't want history erased. All I want is for the glorification of the confederacy to stop (even the founder the SC Secessionist Party said stop), and I want these terrible people put in the museum, even if I ocean is personally where I'd put it - but you won't be able to get history that way.
Washington and Jefferson have nothing to do with this. I don't care about what the rest of the country is doing.
You’re blurring lines again. Why is Washington and Jefferson ok but not Hampton or the word “plantation”?
You seem to be randomly upset about things for no reason that cannot possibly affect you in any way.
I have “plantation shutters” in my house. Should I rename them?
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