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I think any new hotel is a bad idea and a non-starter until the new Convention center is complete and the bookings for the coming year consume the available bunks in the valley. The problem with doing mixed use is who would really want to move downtown? Charleston's downtown is not cosmopolitan enough at this time as it lacks basic essentials. It is the chicken and the egg paradox. The essentials will not be built until there is a demand but people will not move in until they can fill their basic needs. This was the problem with the convention triangle - hotel expansion - civic center expansion - airport connections. Flights would not start landing here that connected to new places, unless there was traffic demand, the traffic would not demand it because the civic center was outdated and the hotels would not expand because the few conventions we could book did not need large blocks of rooms on a regular basis. No one side of that leg was going to move on its own, until the city backed the CC expansion, now the other three react and a new hotel will come in time and with that new connecting flights.
The best use for that site is in my opinion a mixed use campus of several smaller buildings that build on what has been set up already. An aquatic center, a children's discovery center, and my personal favorite, an aquarium. It does not have to be a huge one, there is a nice sized one in Newport Ky across from Cincinnati. Something on that scale would work very well. Schools systems across the region would come to use it. I would also add an outside plaza with a central fountain that is turned into a skating rink in the winter, perhaps a small amphitheater for summer productions, a sort of playhouse in the park, make it a small festival area with many possible activities and then use it like a living room for the city. A pet park would be nice too and of course some form of parking, maybe an all underground garage.
That is the sort of thing that makes people want to be there, maybe even live there. Then you can start getting mixed use and boutique hotels and executive rental suites.
Good points, and most downtowns in WV face that very problem. The two hardest problems for Charleston are getting developers to bite on building market-rate apartments, and not just condos which only cater to a select group (though, thankfully, they've been selling), and, like you said, meeting the essential needs of downtown residents. Folks on the East End have been clamoring for a legitimate grocer for years now, but still nothing. Getting something in between the two areas, say on the block across from Moses, would be a huge help for both parties. And, why can't a mixed-use development also contain a grocer to serve the tenants of the building? It might be feasible, but I think a more central location for the store would be better (can also be mixed-use). But, just with the Civic Center, someone has to bite the bullet and supply the chicken/egg to bring about the other one.
There are some things that the City and County can do that are beyond a developer's power to encourage downtown living, and they all support making downtown just more appealing in aesthetics, safety, and entertainment. There are many projects still in the planning and even more nascent phases, but the push for a revamped Brawley Walkway and Slack Plaza will create an actual block/public square that is so desperately needed (not filled by Davis Park, unfortunately) and will connect the two biggest retail draws in town. Ongoing efforts to create a more walkable and bikeable community, such as the bike trail master plan, bike lanes on the Boulevard (If the state Division of Culture and History would stop dragging their feet), more sidewalk repair, and overall cleanliness will go a long way to making people want to spend more time downtown. Soon thereafter, hopefully people will think to themselves, "You know, I like it here so much, I should probably just move here!"
And as for the aquarium/discovery center project (which I love), I don't necessarily want it at the Holley site. If I ever have power in the city, I would love to see this vision come to fruition: First, I would love to see a mixed use project on the Holley site, with retail and *gasp* a grocery store. Since the City already seems determined to put a parking garage on the Dickenson side of that block, we'll include that as well. Once that happens, continued infill of retail and services along Quarrier to LSW, with renovated office and living space in the current buildings (e.g. Medical Arts Building) will complete that corridor as a destination itself instead of an afterthought of Capitol. Also, I would look into working with the owners of the Huntington Bank parking garage to install some sort of artistic facade on the Hale Street side of the garage to promote activity on that street (unfortunately, redevelopment of that frontage into retail/offices is not feasible with the configuration of the building). By then, the City would have an actual shopping/entertainment district along Summers, Capitol, Hale, and Quarrier (and some on Lee). After that, my grand plan is to encourage the relocation of the USPS facility to anywhere other than that parcel. I would then raze the warehouse portion of the facility (no way I would let anyone touch the actual post office) and put the aquarium there. The post office could serve as an entrance to the center from downtown, and the side facing the Clay Center would be landscaped to match it and the Ratrie greenspace adjacent to it. That could include the fountain and plaza you mentioned, which would make for a phenomenal area. Finally, if all that gets accomplished, maybe by then the new library would have enough funds to be built and could go in its proposed location on the corner of Lee and LSW, creating an educational corridor which would include the library, aquarium, Clay Center, and the schools (Sacred Heart/Charleston Catholic). That scenario would also assume the properties on the south side of LSW would be redeveloped into something else, probably hotels (which wouldn't be a problem with all the shiny new attractions nearby).
If all that's not possible, then putting an attraction (say, aquarium) on the Holley site wouldn't be bad. I still think another place, like the dead zone between the Clay Center and APP would be better as it would connect some disparate civic sites.
yeah any aquarium should definitely be tied to the Clay Center and not on Quarrier Street.............fountains, plazas, green space etc are all nice but have no place on the Holly site. This is a business development not a charity case. This needs to be housing, offices, retail, restaurants etc........These developers are out to make money. Every time a project succeeds they will look to do another trying to replicate that success.
Just give it to Wendell already and see what he can do with it. Nothing has obviously worked for decades now; let's actually take a chance on someone who wants to see that parcel realized to a higher potential.
I am not sure that is the best path forward, Charleston like many cities it's size or even larger has had many periods of uncontrolled and unplanned development. Seldom does this turn out well for the long run. What is missing here is not money or need or ability to do something with the location. What is missing is a plan. Charleston lacks visionaries and we will not have one for a while now.
Mayor Jones is on his farewell tour, which means he isn't going to do anything that was not left on his agenda. You can bet, this issue is not on his to do list that he started with when he first entered City Hall. In the 80s the city financially backed at least two long term strategic studies that would serve as a guideline for future development. The problem with these studies is that they base the next 20 years on what a city needed for the last 20, times change and these plans become set in concrete.
A better approach is to think like someone that would live, work and recreate in the city. Doing so opens up new ways of seeing problems and solutions and the carte blanche approach is not based on anything but frustration.
I think the land needs to sit idle for the near future as the city tackles bigger issues on why people do not want to go there, be there, live there or shop there. Charleston has a huge number of bars and adult entertainment operations - far too many for a city this size. Most are unregulated and few are money generators for the city, although they do generate a tidy sum for the near slum lord owners. It is safe to say that drugs flow freely at some of them. Capitol St has had more than a few headlines with clubs such as Skye that are little more than cesspits.
The next thing that has to go in the CBD is public housing of all types. I know many regard it as noble but it is a stupid idea to have all of those types of projects ringing the CBD. Most of the criminals involved in the nasty businesses in town generate from these locations. Tear them all down and run these people out. This is not about being noble. Running a city is a business, doing so should not earn you a Mother Teresa Award.
The way through this sludge is via the Imminent Domain power, which is often challenged in court but always comes out - in time - to favor the city wielding the bull dozer.
My fleeing son the state of the city are well-known by those that read my posts - tear it all down and start over, there is nothing worth saving. But, having said that, there can be some saved and much that is currently a negative could be an asset. Provided, you drop some roach bombs liberally around the city and clean out the crime ridden infestation.
Most slum lords operating around town such as Turner and Johns operate via law firms and this makes dealing with this issue a problem. The fix for this property being discussed will solve itself if the land is made an attractive enterprise for a big thinking developer. Trying to pawn it off on some local-yocal is just more of the back room dealing that has put the city on the endangered species list.
I like Wendell's plan, and he seems like the kind of guy who could get things moving on it. He's had success before, and the city is sorely in need of exactly the kind of mixed-use development he's proposed. His pitch even appears to be low risk for the city -- Wendell would pay cash, with CURA retaining an option to buy it back for the same price should Wendell not develop it.
Obviously there is the chance that someone could come forward with a better proposal before the deadline, but as things stand now, this seems to me to be a good plan.
I like Wendell's plan, and he seems like the kind of guy who could get things moving on it. He's had success before, and the city is sorely in need of exactly the kind of mixed-use development he's proposed. His pitch even appears to be low risk for the city -- Wendell would pay cash, with CURA retaining an option to buy it back for the same price should Wendell not develop it.
Obviously there is the chance that someone could come forward with a better proposal before the deadline, but as things stand now, this seems to me to be a good plan.
Quoting the article:
"Wendell does not want to put a hotel on the site, but couldn’t say specifically what he would build there."
I am not sure where you see a plan in that statement but it reads like carte blanche to me as in, let me have the money and the site and I will do something with it. Geeze, we do not need that sort of deal.
After a period of seeming a bit quiet, I noticed a new banner go up at 814 Virginia Street (former Housing Development Fund offices, next to the Masonic Temple) a week or two ago. The building is being billed as "The Virginian," viewings for condos can be made by appointment, with units supposedly ready by "spring."
Also, details are murky, but the Shriners are looking at options to develop their property next to the civic center. Word is a "major project" could be in the works. News story here: http://wchstv.com/news/local/major-d...own-charleston
It's worth noting the Shriners also own the land the Fifth Quarter sits on. So, there's enough land for more than one possibility: the development could be only on the Fifth Quarter site; only on the Temple site; or encompass both.
Last edited by Carnilmo; 02-04-2016 at 12:10 PM..
Reason: ETA: Info on Shrine development
I have a buddy over at CASCI and they dabble from time-to-time in development as a subsidiary to insurance. She says that the word around their cubicles is that it is a new hotel. I had always thought that intersection was the best place but I never imagined the Shriners would sell out. It would be about right for the number of jobs being project - 100-150. It kind of has to be something like that as nothing requires that many bodies in a space that small. All cities like to have a host hotel walkway connected to their convention center. If so you can bet, Marriott, Embassy and Four Seasons will be none too happy.
This could possibly be the best news the city has had in years. If.....and thats a big IF, the city is able to lure a developer to develop a big time convention center hotel on the Masonic/5th Qtr property, it would be a huge shot in the arm to not only the CVB but the CCC as well.
Most big time convention cities have a major hotel connected to their convention center. While the Charleston setup hasn't really been able to offer that, connecting a new high rise convention center hotel to the Civic Center Complex could make this a whole new ballgame. Hopefully the powers that be realize this needs to be a Hilton, Hyatt, Sheraton etc......No Holiday Inns, Ramadas, Hamptons etc need apply.
And with the latest news of Sears potentially biting the dust, hopefully the Forest City people are all over Dillards, Boscovs, BonTon, etc to replace that space if necessary. If Charleston opens a multi million dollar convention center hotel complex and the best shopping available is JC Penny, that is going to be sad. Charleston needs to step up to the plate and do what Charlotte did in the 70's and Raleigh did in the 80's.........anything that is necessary to land more convention business, corporate meeting and headquarters etc.........
And this is not to say the Marriott needs to be left out of this conversation. They were very much a pillar in building the Town Center and the CCC. They need to be a major partner in any marketing etc going forward. They can be connected to both the mall and the Charleston Convention Center easily with skyways just as the new hotel can......especially after their multi million dollar renovation. They are a partner the CCC and CVB should be proud to work with.
Last edited by CRWMSPPGH; 02-11-2016 at 09:00 PM..
Reason: forgot something
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