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Old 07-06-2012, 06:19 PM
 
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I just don't buy that murder is a crime that can be "deterred" or the death penalty. Either folks are in the heat of passion that they're not thinking straight, they're wildly desperate to the point that they can see no other way, they're psychologically deranged, etc.
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Old 07-06-2012, 08:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by coped View Post
I just don't buy that murder is a crime that can be "deterred" or the death penalty. Either folks are in the heat of passion that they're not thinking straight, they're wildly desperate to the point that they can see no other way, they're psychologically deranged, etc.
We have no idea if it's a deterrent because it's not used enough to know. I'm confident that if the death penalty was applied in a much more sensible manner, it would be a major deterrent.

In any event, it would permanently remove from society those who violate the most basic of human laws. Then there's no chance of them committing another crime, and the families of the victims no longer have to relive the crime through repeated appeals, parole hearings, and media coverage. Can you imagine seeing the killer of your family members repeatedly for many years due to the current legal process?
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Old 07-06-2012, 09:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by vmaxnc View Post
We have no idea if it's a deterrent because it's not used enough to know. I'm confident that if the death penalty was applied in a much more sensible manner, it would be a major deterrent.
I can believe that for minor crimes. But not for murder. Once someone has decided murder is the best way to deal with something, they have left the tracks. The death penalty isn't going to stop them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vmaxnc View Post
In any event, it would permanently remove from society those who violate the most basic of human laws. Then there's no chance of them committing another crime, and the families of the victims no longer have to relive the crime through repeated appeals, parole hearings, and media coverage. Can you imagine seeing the killer of your family members repeatedly for many years due to the current legal process?
No I can't imagine it. But how much more horrific would it be for your family member to be falsely convicted and swiftly executed? Justice can never be served that way.

We shouldn't be making laws from the standpoint of victim's families. While it's a nice emotional appeal, it doesn't advance justice.
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Old 07-06-2012, 10:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by coped View Post
I can believe that for minor crimes. But not for murder. Once someone has decided murder is the best way to deal with something, they have left the tracks. The death penalty isn't going to stop them.



No I can't imagine it. But how much more horrific would it be for your family member to be falsely convicted and swiftly executed? Justice can never be served that way.

We shouldn't be making laws from the standpoint of victim's families. While it's a nice emotional appeal, it doesn't advance justice.
There's no doubt in my mind that once the death penalty has been in place for several years, and used properly, that people won't kill so easily. As it is, they're not afraid of the punishment. Raise the likelihood of their execution from .000000000001% to 80%, and they'll think twice. Murder won't be such a ready option for many people. But as I said before, execution means no potential for further crimes, etc. There are many benefits beyond deterrent.

The likelihood of being wrongly convicted in modern times is far less than it was 20 years ago. But let's just start with the top 50% of convicted murderers, who we know are guilty beyond any doubt. Jared Loughner (killed 6, shot the senator in AZ)-dead. The Norwegian nut who killed 77 people-dead. Yes, I know he's in Norway; it's just an example. The two subhumans who raped and killed the mom and two daughters in Connecticut(?) then burned their home-dead. There are more than 3300 people on death row in the US. At least half are absolutely guilty with no doubt whatsoever, and should be put down. Start with groups like that, and you will see a difference. It sounds cold, but what do we gain by spending tens of billions of dollars incarcerating these people, and all those serving long sentences for murder? We get the illusion of mercy and justice. But really...nothing, that's what. Nothing.
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Old 07-07-2012, 10:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by vmaxnc View Post
There's no doubt in my mind that once the death penalty has been in place for several years, and used properly, that people won't kill so easily. As it is, they're not afraid of the punishment. Raise the likelihood of their execution from .000000000001% to 80%, and they'll think twice. Murder won't be such a ready option for many people. But as I said before, execution means no potential for further crimes, etc. There are many benefits beyond deterrent.
They won't think twice because by the time you get to the point of committing murder, you aren't thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vmaxnc View Post
The likelihood of being wrongly convicted in modern times is far less than it was 20 years ago. But let's just start with the top 50% of convicted murderers, who we know are guilty beyond any doubt. Jared Loughner (killed 6, shot the senator in AZ)-dead. The Norwegian nut who killed 77 people-dead. Yes, I know he's in Norway; it's just an example. The two subhumans who raped and killed the mom and two daughters in Connecticut(?) then burned their home-dead. There are more than 3300 people on death row in the US. At least half are absolutely guilty with no doubt whatsoever, and should be put down. Start with groups like that, and you will see a difference. It sounds cold, but what do we gain by spending tens of billions of dollars incarcerating these people, and all those serving long sentences for murder? We get the illusion of mercy and justice. But really...nothing, that's what. Nothing.
Jared Loughner is clinically insane. No law was going to prevent him from going off the rails. (Though it could be argued that stricter gun control might have kept him from getting access to that rifle) The guy in Norway was unstable and under the influence of right wing extremists. He thought he was doing God's work or becoming a hero. Again, not thinking about the punishment.

We spend 10s of billions on ALL prisons and jails, not just murderers. Murderers make up a small percentage of the people in our system. Enforcing the death penalty more often would just cause more lawsuits and would save pennies. There are 2 million inmates in this country. It would be less effective than just ending the death penalty all together thus ending the long appeals, etc.

We arrest and house too many people largely because of the privatization of prisons, which makes it profitable to keep people in prison. And the silly and misguided war on crime and war on drugs.

However, we do get license plates, highway signs and highway cleaning services for next to nothing thanks to state inmates.
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Old 07-07-2012, 11:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by coped View Post
They won't think twice because by the time you get to the point of committing murder, you aren't thinking.



Jared Loughner is clinically insane. No law was going to prevent him from going off the rails. (Though it could be argued that stricter gun control might have kept him from getting access to that rifle) The guy in Norway was unstable and under the influence of right wing extremists. He thought he was doing God's work or becoming a hero. Again, not thinking about the punishment.

We spend 10s of billions on ALL prisons and jails, not just murderers. Murderers make up a small percentage of the people in our system. Enforcing the death penalty more often would just cause more lawsuits and would save pennies. There are 2 million inmates in this country. It would be less effective than just ending the death penalty all together thus ending the long appeals, etc.

We arrest and house too many people largely because of the privatization of prisons, which makes it profitable to keep people in prison. And the silly and misguided war on crime and war on drugs.

However, we do get license plates, highway signs and highway cleaning services for next to nothing thanks to state inmates.
I gave those names as examples of people for whom there is no reason for life, not as people that might have been deterred. There are many who if they believed they would definitely lose their own life would not get to the point if killing. Not everyone simply snaps as you suggest.

The process is hugely expensive because of how it's implemented. Most of the motions presented have nothing to do with justice, they're just there to prolong and obfuscate the process. One trial, one appeal with a year, two years max, sentence carried out the next day. If we don't trust the process to get the correct verdict after two trials, why bother at all? We've allowed the whole system to become a mess.

We're probably not going to agree on this and that's fine. I think we need a radical change, and when it comes to the death penalty not many people want to consider what that might be.
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Old 07-07-2012, 02:43 PM
 
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I agree with glad on those who are obviously guilty... when you have multiple witnesses and there is no reasonable doubt. Fire it up or use a bullet. the whole injection humane thing should be thrown out the window too...

I also think every man in jail for rape should get DNA tested.. I know some states do it but others don't out of fear of exposing some of the dirty DA's who manipulate evidence for convictions.

Last but not least... pedophiles.. these people cannot be rehabilitated... men and women should be treated the same and should rot in jail. I don't care hoe pretty a female teacher is... the ones who prey on young boys are no different than the guys who like young boys or girls.
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Old 07-07-2012, 04:48 PM
 
Location: State of Being
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There has been a long running discussion about a disproportionate amount of black males being incarcerated in this country, and I have seen it asserted that if the death penalty were regularly pursued, then there would be a disproportionate amount of black males on death row.

I have been concerned b/c so many folks in prison for life have been exonerated after-the-fact, making it very disturbing to think anyone could possibly get a death sentence when he/she were not guilty. I would think this would be a prosecutor's worst fear (i sure hope it would concern them!)

I think those two reasons have something to do with why prosecutors here are reluctant to pursue the death penalty, but that is just a supposition based on what I have observed over the years.
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Old 07-07-2012, 05:02 PM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
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Originally Posted by lovesMountains View Post
So your theory is that most murders in Charlotte are either "crimes of passion", or somehow just not "premeditated" enough to be considered 1st degree murder?
Which also describes most murder cases in most cities.
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by anifani821 View Post
There has been a long running discussion about a disproportionate amount of black males being incarcerated in this country, and I have seen it asserted that if the death penalty were regularly pursued, then there would be a disproportionate amount of black males on death row.

I have been concerned b/c so many folks in prison for life have been exonerated after-the-fact, making it very disturbing to think anyone could possibly get a death sentence when he/she were not guilty. I would think this would be a prosecutor's worst fear (i sure hope it would concern them!)

I think those two reasons have something to do with why prosecutors here are reluctant to pursue the death penalty, but that is just a supposition based on what I have observed over the years.
13% of the population, nearly 50% of the criminals. That is disproportionate, but the important question is, is it correct? Look up the local arrest records and see a snapshot of who is arrested daily. I'm sure many are marijuana related, so that number would drop if this country would wake up and legalize pot.

As I said before, modern unjust convictions, especially for capital crimes, are far fewer than they were 20-30 years ago. And in my idea of capital punishment, you start at the top and work your way down.

Consider this: Let's say it takes three years to catch and convict a murderer, for the sake of discussion. There were ~16,400 murders in the US in 2008. There were 43 executions in 2011. That's less than one quarter of one percent. No, the numbers aren't exact for a variety of reasons, but let's exaggerate and say that less than 1% of murderers are executed. That serves little purpose. Make that number 50%+, which still takes into account every mitigating circumstance, absolute lack of doubt, etc., etc., and there would start to be a shift.
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