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Old 05-18-2017, 02:33 PM
 
957 posts, read 2,021,351 times
Reputation: 1415

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One bad car (particularly a 2003 model) doesn't say anything about a manufacturer's quality today, nor does "a neighbor's XXXX dollar vehicle." As I noted EVERY manufacturer has specific cars that are duds. We owned a Toyota that had the whole electrical system shutdown. My close friend had a Honda lemon-lawed. Neighbor just complained that his Lexus SUV needed $2600 worth of work 9 months out of warranty. But I'm not screaming about how bad Toyota, Honda, or Lexus is on internet forums because 1 particular car doesn't tell any story, even if that car is exceptionally good or exceptionally bad. I've owned amazingly great cars (in terms of quality and reliability) from American, European, and Japanese manufacturers.

GM sold 3 million cars in the US alone last year. The industry average for new cars is about 1 problem per car. So, that means if GM is average, there were about 3 million problems with GM 2016 vehicles last year. Everyone knows someone that had a problem with one. By the way, Lexus sold 330k cars in the US last year. Which means even if they had the exact same quality, you would "hear" (or read on the internet) about 10 times more problems with GM cars than Lexus (and in the initial survey for last year, Chevy and Buick were ahead of Lexus, while Caddy and GMC were behind).

Also, we should note that generalizing "GM" or any manufacturer that has a long varied line is hard as well. Take for example the GM Lambda platform (Acadia, Traverse, Enclave, Outlook). They had a couple of years where they had timing chain, steering rack, and transmission problems. THOSE years of those cars have issues and I wouldn't touch one with a 50 foot pole. (GM has actually recognized this and extended the warranty for specific parts). If you owned a 2008 Acadia and got stuck on the side of the road, you probably hate GM. But they fixed the issues, and the next door neighbor who owns a 2012 Acadia (that looks visual identical) probably loves GM and is overjoyed at how reliable the car is. So is GM good or bad? Is the Acadia good or bad?

The thing to know today, is that every manufacturer's quality is significantly better than it was 10-15 years ago. Cars have way less problems, and the difference between the best and the worst, isn't even that different. It is how we (and most importantly, the dealer and independent entity) deal with the any issues that come up. Seems like victimofGM had a terrible experience and is right to not want to own another. Other people have had good experience. I had a fantastic service advisor and dealer experience with the least reliable car I owned (a Japanese brand). I had to fight with the manufacturer who denied his warranty claim on something that should have been covered. He helped me significantly, so despite my troubles with the vehicle, and the manufacturer, I was not soured on them at all due to the service advisor and department being on my side. Had it gone the other way, I would probably never buy that brand again either, but that doesn't make them not reliable.

Sorry for the long-winded post....just started typing and didn't stop.....
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Old 05-18-2017, 07:01 PM
 
17,614 posts, read 17,656,125 times
Reputation: 25677
Quote:
Originally Posted by z28lt1 View Post
One bad car (particularly a 2003 model) doesn't say anything about a manufacturer's quality today, nor does "a neighbor's XXXX dollar vehicle." As I noted EVERY manufacturer has specific cars that are duds. We owned a Toyota that had the whole electrical system shutdown. My close friend had a Honda lemon-lawed. Neighbor just complained that his Lexus SUV needed $2600 worth of work 9 months out of warranty. But I'm not screaming about how bad Toyota, Honda, or Lexus is on internet forums because 1 particular car doesn't tell any story, even if that car is exceptionally good or exceptionally bad. I've owned amazingly great cars (in terms of quality and reliability) from American, European, and Japanese manufacturers.

GM sold 3 million cars in the US alone last year. The industry average for new cars is about 1 problem per car. So, that means if GM is average, there were about 3 million problems with GM 2016 vehicles last year. Everyone knows someone that had a problem with one. By the way, Lexus sold 330k cars in the US last year. Which means even if they had the exact same quality, you would "hear" (or read on the internet) about 10 times more problems with GM cars than Lexus (and in the initial survey for last year, Chevy and Buick were ahead of Lexus, while Caddy and GMC were behind).

Also, we should note that generalizing "GM" or any manufacturer that has a long varied line is hard as well. Take for example the GM Lambda platform (Acadia, Traverse, Enclave, Outlook). They had a couple of years where they had timing chain, steering rack, and transmission problems. THOSE years of those cars have issues and I wouldn't touch one with a 50 foot pole. (GM has actually recognized this and extended the warranty for specific parts). If you owned a 2008 Acadia and got stuck on the side of the road, you probably hate GM. But they fixed the issues, and the next door neighbor who owns a 2012 Acadia (that looks visual identical) probably loves GM and is overjoyed at how reliable the car is. So is GM good or bad? Is the Acadia good or bad?

The thing to know today, is that every manufacturer's quality is significantly better than it was 10-15 years ago. Cars have way less problems, and the difference between the best and the worst, isn't even that different. It is how we (and most importantly, the dealer and independent entity) deal with the any issues that come up. Seems like victimofGM had a terrible experience and is right to not want to own another. Other people have had good experience. I had a fantastic service advisor and dealer experience with the least reliable car I owned (a Japanese brand). I had to fight with the manufacturer who denied his warranty claim on something that should have been covered. He helped me significantly, so despite my troubles with the vehicle, and the manufacturer, I was not soured on them at all due to the service advisor and department being on my side. Had it gone the other way, I would probably never buy that brand again either, but that doesn't make them not reliable.

Sorry for the long-winded post....just started typing and didn't stop.....
I agree that one 2003 model is t enough. However thanks to internet research I found out how long the leaking intake gasket problem has gone on for (more than a decade), also found out that the PassLock Anti-theft problem was so common people came up with DIY bypass solutions using toggle switches installed to overcome the problem when (not if) it happens. The AC control plate had the same problem every time I had it replaced. Problem was GM only had a one year parts warranty so for the first year it worked fine and then it didn't and if I wanted it fixed again, that's another $400 parts and labor. A few coworkers had the same generation GM vehicle in the Pontiac Grand Am and Oldsmobile Alero and they had similar problems including the warping brake rotors. Naturally the dealerships blamed us for the rotors warping. I took mine to a shop I trusted and they replaced the rotors with non-GM parts. Those rotors were still going strong 6 years later when I traded in the car. A few of my neighbors had other model GM cars with the 3.1L V6 and developed the infamous intake leak. This wasn't just one car in 2003. This was many GM vehicles (Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, & Oldsmobile) all with the same problems for more than a decade.
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Old 05-18-2017, 07:10 PM
 
17,614 posts, read 17,656,125 times
Reputation: 25677
Quote:
Originally Posted by z28lt1 View Post
One bad car (particularly a 2003 model) doesn't say anything about a manufacturer's quality today, nor does "a neighbor's XXXX dollar vehicle." As I noted EVERY manufacturer has specific cars that are duds. We owned a Toyota that had the whole electrical system shutdown. My close friend had a Honda lemon-lawed. Neighbor just complained that his Lexus SUV needed $2600 worth of work 9 months out of warranty. But I'm not screaming about how bad Toyota, Honda, or Lexus is on internet forums because 1 particular car doesn't tell any story, even if that car is exceptionally good or exceptionally bad. I've owned amazingly great cars (in terms of quality and reliability) from American, European, and Japanese manufacturers.

GM sold 3 million cars in the US alone last year. The industry average for new cars is about 1 problem per car. So, that means if GM is average, there were about 3 million problems with GM 2016 vehicles last year. Everyone knows someone that had a problem with one. By the way, Lexus sold 330k cars in the US last year. Which means even if they had the exact same quality, you would "hear" (or read on the internet) about 10 times more problems with GM cars than Lexus (and in the initial survey for last year, Chevy and Buick were ahead of Lexus, while Caddy and GMC were behind).

Also, we should note that generalizing "GM" or any manufacturer that has a long varied line is hard as well. Take for example the GM Lambda platform (Acadia, Traverse, Enclave, Outlook). They had a couple of years where they had timing chain, steering rack, and transmission problems. THOSE years of those cars have issues and I wouldn't touch one with a 50 foot pole. (GM has actually recognized this and extended the warranty for specific parts). If you owned a 2008 Acadia and got stuck on the side of the road, you probably hate GM. But they fixed the issues, and the next door neighbor who owns a 2012 Acadia (that looks visual identical) probably loves GM and is overjoyed at how reliable the car is. So is GM good or bad? Is the Acadia good or bad?

The thing to know today, is that every manufacturer's quality is significantly better than it was 10-15 years ago. Cars have way less problems, and the difference between the best and the worst, isn't even that different. It is how we (and most importantly, the dealer and independent entity) deal with the any issues that come up. Seems like victimofGM had a terrible experience and is right to not want to own another. Other people have had good experience. I had a fantastic service advisor and dealer experience with the least reliable car I owned (a Japanese brand). I had to fight with the manufacturer who denied his warranty claim on something that should have been covered. He helped me significantly, so despite my troubles with the vehicle, and the manufacturer, I was not soured on them at all due to the service advisor and department being on my side. Had it gone the other way, I would probably never buy that brand again either, but that doesn't make them not reliable.

Sorry for the long-winded post....just started typing and didn't stop.....
If you don't believe me then look up GM V6 leaking intake gasket and another search for GM warp brake rotors.
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Old 05-19-2017, 05:08 AM
 
Location: Floribama
18,949 posts, read 43,596,850 times
Reputation: 18760
Quote:
Originally Posted by victimofGM View Post
I agree that one 2003 model is t enough. However thanks to internet research I found out how long the leaking intake gasket problem has gone on for (more than a decade), also found out that the PassLock Anti-theft problem was so common people came up with DIY bypass solutions using toggle switches installed to overcome the problem when (not if) it happens. The AC control plate had the same problem every time I had it replaced. Problem was GM only had a one year parts warranty so for the first year it worked fine and then it didn't and if I wanted it fixed again, that's another $400 parts and labor. A few coworkers had the same generation GM vehicle in the Pontiac Grand Am and Oldsmobile Alero and they had similar problems including the warping brake rotors. Naturally the dealerships blamed us for the rotors warping. I took mine to a shop I trusted and they replaced the rotors with non-GM parts. Those rotors were still going strong 6 years later when I traded in the car. A few of my neighbors had other model GM cars with the 3.1L V6 and developed the infamous intake leak. This wasn't just one car in 2003. This was many GM vehicles (Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, & Oldsmobile) all with the same problems for more than a decade.
Yep, my grandmother's 2000 Century had the leaking intake gasket, so did my cousin's 2002 Impala. In the beginning it was very expensive to fix, and then finally after mechanics had fixed so many of them and became more familiar with them, it got a little cheaper.

Another issue is the 2010-2012 (and maybe later) Equinox and Terrain with the defective engines that GM should have extended the warranty on. So far they haven't, and people are paying thousands to have engines replaced.
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Old 05-19-2017, 05:26 AM
 
957 posts, read 2,021,351 times
Reputation: 1415
Quote:
Originally Posted by victimofGM View Post
If you don't believe me then look up GM V6 leaking intake gasket and another search for GM warp brake rotors.
I believe you, and I sympathize with you, and completely understand why you have no interest in GM car, and don't blame you for that opinion at all. (My former English teachers would die if they read that sentence).

I just don't think it has any bearing on the original question of the thread, which was asking about post bankruptcy GM and if it has improved. I've also added my opinion that there are all kinds of problems with all kinds of cars, and in general they are all getting better. If we want to go back and pick on specific failures over the last 10-20 years, it is easy to do with almost every manufacturer. Do the same search for BMW 325i oil leak. or Acura Legend head head gasket, or Honda Accord transmission failure, or Toyota Camry oil consumption, and on and on.
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Old 05-19-2017, 09:29 AM
 
Location: NY
9,131 posts, read 20,006,903 times
Reputation: 11707
Generally a 15 year old car is not representative of the present, but anyone looking for a new car should absolutely do some internet research to see if past problems have been resolved.


I am not too current on late model GM's, but I do know some Fords are still suffering the same ticky tack issues as they did 15+ years ago. On a corporate level, ford just does not seem willing to engineer the issues out of the product.


GM, for a long time, had such issues too (such as the V6 gasket issues mentioned).


Mostly, I follow a rule of "fool me once, shame on you, but fool me twice, then shame on me." If I had one, or a series of nightmares from an automaker, I would be far less likely to run back to them again with my money. Especially if research revealed some sketchy stuff still out there.
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Texas
5,717 posts, read 18,919,856 times
Reputation: 11226
Overall, GM is making better and more reliable cars and trucks. But they are still behind all of the other makers in quality and reliability. Where they seem to have suffered the most is in their light truck division. The Silverado is a rolling POS with non-stop issues with vibrations, and parts failures. Hard to believe anybody would buy one if they researched the issues they have. For a company as old and experienced as GM is, the common issues with the rear axles is just plain stupid. Buick is still their best made car but it's slipping in reliability. Seems the numbers that go out the door is still the prime target, not the reliability of the product. But I guess car buying is like politics, some folks are just too stupid to know the difference between a good and a bad thing.
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Old 05-19-2017, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Alaska
3,146 posts, read 4,104,083 times
Reputation: 5470
Quote:
Originally Posted by censusdata View Post
Those of you who have driven a few GM products... how do you feel the quality of today's vehicle compare to before the company was restructured in 2010? Historically GM has been hit or miss with reliability compared to industry standards Toyota and Honda but still had some good cars, too. The reputation used to be the trucks were put together better than small cars.
I think GM was on top of their game when they still had the Saturn division.

From 1994-2006, my extended family bought two SL1 sedans (1994 & 1995), two LW wagons (1999 & 2000/ the first one was caught in a flood and an insurance write-off), a 2006 Relay 3 AWD (which my daughter is now driving) and a 2008 Vue XR AWD (one of my favorites).

Over the years, every Saturn provided or provides excellent service, reliability, comfort, and value.

Had GM not killed the Saturn division, in all likelihood, we would still be Saturn owners because they were excellent products and we had nothing but positive experiences with our vehicles and the dealerships.

The only new GM vehicle that has caught my interest is the upcoming, German-built Buick Regal Tour X due later this year. If the price is right and it compares in size and capabilities to the Subaru Outback and drives and handles like an VW Alltrack, then GM may win me back as a customer.
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:28 PM
 
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
11,974 posts, read 25,470,414 times
Reputation: 12187
OP here. I think the involvement of GM Korea (Daewoo) with small engines is a good, not bad, thing. The most reliable GM small engines seem to have all been from Suzuki like Geo / Chevy Tracker or Toyota NUMMI products. My family has purchased many NUMMI products over the years from the 1980s Chevy Novas to my 2009 Pontiac Vibe. I wish they would have continued the project after Pontiac folder, rebadged them as Chevy Vibes. I am concerned about many Buicks now been assembled in China for the US market. Hard for people to have loyalty to American car companies that does that when they could buy a Japanese or Korean nameplate assembled domestically. It seems like GM has avoided Ford and Chrysler's problems with dual clutch CVTs so far which is good.
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Old 05-19-2017, 02:26 PM
 
957 posts, read 2,021,351 times
Reputation: 1415
As far as I know, Buick only imports the Envision from China to the US. Someone feel free to correct me if I am not remembering correctly.

As the Envision doesn't share the platform with other GM brands, there is no business case for a factory here to produce only 25k vehicles a year. All reviews I've read are that the one from China is well built and a solid vehicle and there is nothing different from a Buick built in the US. Which makes sense because in auto manufacturing, the design and specifications of the vehicle and the assembly process are so much more important than location of assembly.

They will likely bring production to the US if/when some combination of Chevy, Cadillac and GMC get a version.

Although GM may be put in a tough spot -- If sales aren't good, why invest in other vehicles on the platform and domestic manufacturing? If sales are good, why not keep building them in China, since the market will obviously accept a Chinese built version?

For now, the business case was to bring them in from China, or don't sell them here at all. More options are probably better...
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