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Old 07-08-2023, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Born + raised SF Bay; Tyler, TX now WNY
8,478 posts, read 4,724,709 times
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GM won’t, because all the buying public wants are snoozemobiles. Ovoid, jacked up SUVish things stuffed to the gills with everything but driving excitement. The very form factor is not conducive to fun. Electric power steering which is almost always incredibly numb is just fine with people. They’d rather have a dozen screens and Bluetooth and WiFi hotspots and stuff than real hardware. GM is building what buyers really want.
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Old 07-08-2023, 09:52 AM
 
17,597 posts, read 17,629,777 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcp123 View Post
GM won’t, because all the buying public wants are snoozemobiles. Ovoid, jacked up SUVish things stuffed to the gills with everything but driving excitement. The very form factor is not conducive to fun. Electric power steering which is almost always incredibly numb is just fine with people. They’d rather have a dozen screens and Bluetooth and WiFi hotspots and stuff than real hardware. GM is building what buyers really want.
It’s always interesting to see what car brands offer in other countries that they don’t offer in USA. Since Gam sold off Opel and Vauxhall, they don’t offer much for Europe different from what is in USA. But check some of the strange vehicles they offer in China. At one time GM offered many different coupes and sedans while offering a few trucks and truck based SUVs. Now it’s reversed. One has to go to Cadillac for a sedan or coupe and everything else is crossovers, SUVs, and trucks.
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Old 07-08-2023, 10:04 AM
 
Location: Northern Virginia
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Because the American buyer decided that space and cargo are more important than 'driving fun'. Perhaps because if we're honest most driving in this country is done in contexts where you couldn't have 'driving fun' even in a Lamborghini. If you compare the 1950s/60s vs today, driving I think has simply become de-romanticized and more utilitarian. Maybe a natural process as generations of people have come and gone, all used to daily driving.



The 'toy' vehicle to take out on the road and play around with on a country road somewhere or driving along the coast..that exists. But honestly, who has the time and money to buy that and do that? Balding executives in a mid-life crisis. But there aren't that many people like that, so a volume-oriented car manufacturer like GM isn't going to put a lot of focus on that.
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Old 07-08-2023, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Sylmar, a part of Los Angeles
8,328 posts, read 6,419,063 times
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My Chevrolet Bolt excited me a lot and still does. I look forward to driving it.
A lifetime hot rodder and sports cars I never paid any attention to 4 door cars or SUV type cars.
I use computers for entertainment in the evening and just for fun started looking at electric cars and became interested. there are hundreds of youtube videos on Bolts and I became determined after awhile to get one. As time went on I learned all about them. Once on the freeway they're about the same as any other car but around town they are fun to drive.
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Old 07-08-2023, 10:22 AM
 
17,597 posts, read 17,629,777 times
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Originally Posted by Veritas Vincit View Post
Because the American buyer decided that space and cargo are more important than 'driving fun'. Perhaps because if we're honest most driving in this country is done in contexts where you couldn't have 'driving fun' even in a Lamborghini. If you compare the 1950s/60s vs today, driving I think has simply become de-romanticized and more utilitarian. Maybe a natural process as generations of people have come and gone, all used to daily driving.



The 'toy' vehicle to take out on the road and play around with on a country road somewhere or driving along the coast..that exists. But honestly, who has the time and money to buy that and do that? Balding executives in a mid-life crisis. But there aren't that many people like that, so a volume-oriented car manufacturer like GM isn't going to put a lot of focus on that.
There’s also the stigma against “station wagons”. Compare the cargo capacity of a Cavalier or Escort wagon with rear seats folded to the compact class SUV/crossovers of today. The rear seats of those early wagons folded flat for great cargo capacity. Then there was the Golf/Rabbit with ample cargo capacity. Such vehicles offered small length, good fuel economy, and great cargo capacity. They were also available with a more powerful engine for a bit more fun.
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Old 07-08-2023, 11:01 AM
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,327 posts, read 54,350,985 times
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Originally Posted by 28173 View Post
GM has been led by "play it safe" designers and decision makers for over 30 years.
Only bright spots are Corvette and trucks/large SUVs

I think the Corvair definitely qualifies as a member of 'NOT play it safe' set. And sorry Ralphie but my first car was a '63 Monza Convertible and I loved it, hatchet-job books be damned.
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Old 07-08-2023, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Northern Virginia
6,786 posts, read 4,224,158 times
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Originally Posted by victimofGM View Post
There’s also the stigma against “station wagons”. Compare the cargo capacity of a Cavalier or Escort wagon with rear seats folded to the compact class SUV/crossovers of today. The rear seats of those early wagons folded flat for great cargo capacity. Then there was the Golf/Rabbit with ample cargo capacity. Such vehicles offered small length, good fuel economy, and great cargo capacity. They were also available with a more powerful engine for a bit more fun.

I am not as old as many here, but I'm old enough to remember the era of wagons, and I don't recall anyone considering them fun then. They were the 'mom car'. I don't think there's any more fun in a station wagon than in an SUV to be honest. If anything I think the rise of the SUV occurred because wagons were perceived as such boring, joyless and strictly utilitarian vehicles.



Over time SUVs, of course, went from 'toy' vehicles like the Wrangler and work vehicles for agriculture, forestry, etc. to being just elevated versions of wagons.



Of course, you can have a sporty wagon, and the German carmakers still make them. But you can also make a sporty SUV, and they exist in the market, too. In truth though 'sportiness' will always be more of a niche phenomenon in the U.S. than in Europe. There's simply more of a high-speed driving culture in Europe, so people are more receptive to performance-based marketing. If I drive on the freeway in the U.S. going 80 mph feels like I'm taking chances and my wife will give me dirty looks, in Germany I'll be in the right lane watching traffic fly past me.
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Old 07-08-2023, 12:28 PM
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,327 posts, read 54,350,985 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veritas Vincit View Post
I am not as old as many here, but I'm old enough to remember the era of wagons, and I don't recall anyone considering them fun then. They were the 'mom car'. I don't think there's any more fun in a station wagon than in an SUV to be honest. If anything I think the rise of the SUV occurred because wagons were perceived as such boring, joyless and strictly utilitarian vehicles.



Over time SUVs, of course, went from 'toy' vehicles like the Wrangler and work vehicles for agriculture, forestry, etc. to being just elevated versions of wagons.



Of course, you can have a sporty wagon, and the German carmakers still make them. But you can also make a sporty SUV, and they exist in the market, too. In truth though 'sportiness' will always be more of a niche phenomenon in the U.S. than in Europe. There's simply more of a high-speed driving culture in Europe, so people are more receptive to performance-based marketing. If I drive on the freeway in the U.S. going 80 mph feels like I'm taking chances and my wife will give me dirty looks, in Germany I'll be in the right lane watching traffic fly past me.


Years ago Car and Driver magazine did several articles on what they called 'Boss Wagons', IIRC they were mostly if not all Mercedes Benz wagons modified to make driving them more fun.
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Old 07-08-2023, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Northern Virginia
6,786 posts, read 4,224,158 times
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Originally Posted by burdell View Post
Years ago Car and Driver magazine did several articles on what they called 'Boss Wagons', IIRC they were mostly if not all Mercedes Benz wagons modified to make driving them more fun.

You can still buy an AMG E63 S wagon with 600+ HP that goes off like a rocket. But that car is 120k+ and not what your average buyer would have in mind when it comes to a wagon.


And for what it's worth if you were so inclined you could also get the AMG GLE 63 SUV with the same engine. But that's also 120k.


I will say that I think it's a fair criticism to say that GM has very much neglected and lost the luxury market segment. Cadillac has virtually no cachet anymore.
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Old 07-08-2023, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
23,656 posts, read 13,964,967 times
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Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
When was Oldsmobile a “fun brand”? That was always a geezer brand. The average age of buyers in 1996 was 60. GM tried to take the brand younger and failed miserably. They tried for four years and announced in 2000 that 2004 was the last year. Buick and Cadillac have both always been that geezer demographic. The average age of Corvette buyers is 61.
Ahh, but what was the average age of the buyer in the 60s thru the 80s, when it was hot fighter pilot (and the like) car with the Cutlass?


I lost my 86 Cutlass Salon in 93, I guess and what they had for the new Cutlass, moving away from one heck of a design in beauty, safety, and power......didn't interest me, didn't go after it, went with something else that I could afford since I had no inspiration for something else.


For me, what defines the classic Cutlass? The V 8 engine and maybe because we don't have that, really, anymore, is the reason why we don't have such cars around it.
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