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Old 12-20-2023, 08:53 PM
 
Location: Western PA
10,811 posts, read 4,501,454 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RcHydro View Post
GM and Ford, are starting to realize investing so heavily on the new technology of EV's was not a good idea. Like playing poker and going all in with only a pair of deuces. Building what they want you to have, and not what the public wants has finally bit them in the back side.

there are other quotes to this, but it is illegal to include them here. Farley gets to the point, on the mandates they face (but there are no mandates ;-) )
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Old 12-21-2023, 02:00 AM
 
Location: Newburyport, MA
12,360 posts, read 9,462,379 times
Reputation: 15827
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Yea, I think it's quite likely that the primary underlying reason for delaying their EV rollout in the near term is that they are a lot of kinks they still need to work out on the Ultium platform. They very much slow-rolled the Cadillac Lyriq release and offered discounts to early adopters to sign NDAs to not talk to the press about their vehicles. My guess is that the were behind in working out the kinks, most likely primarily software kinks or at least were initially identified as software kinks, but they thought they can slow roll a trickle out and get some real world usage from a limited run and that they'd be able to figure things out.

And then that ended up taking much longer than expected and they're *still* working out the issues and so they're up against a hard decision of either (1) further delays to deliver a less buggy product and then idling a lot of plants and workers or (2) deliver a faulty product that would further tarnish their reputation and/or incur a lot of repairs or potential legal exposure. It seems like they opted for a middle road that tried for a limited run of (2), but that the fixes are taking so long that it's now bleeding into (1).

It's a tough place for GM to be at, and it's somewhat similar to what VW has been facing though VW with its earlier release of vehicles on its MEB platforms seems to be much further along with ironing out its issues. If GM basically follows VW's trajectory but with just a later start, then I'd expect there to be a series of significant fixes over the next year or two that will be annoying for owners but usually not absolutely terrible, and then eventually they'll get to a pace where it's fairly solid. And like VW, getting to fairly solid years after initial launch wasn't what they were aiming for, but rather strong market domination trying to leverage their size and collective experience.

It does seem like there's still quite a bit of room for fairly new EV-dedicated companies to take a lot of market share. It seems like the major established automakers are finding the transition in terms of designing and producing solid, competitive electric vehicles to be quite a bit harder than expected.

Ford seems to be doing okay, but not great.

Stellantis has had no releases yet in the US market (though the Peugeot / Citroen side of things in Europe is actually doing pretty well with smaller vehicle).

The Japanese automakers have all been underwhelming so far.

VW is doing well with its EVs in the US market after weathering an initial rough start.

It seems like Hyundai / Kia, BMW, and Mercedes are doing pretty well in the US market and have developed and produced some very competitive vehicles without major hiccups.
Here's an Edmunds article title on the Blazer EV they purchased: "Our Chevy Blazer EV Has 23 Problems After Only 2 Months" - it's been at the dealer for 2 weeks of those 2 months. They're not thrilled.
https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/202...rm-faults.html

It's still fairly early in the Ultium platform story and I hope GM can hit another gear with it (so to speak) in 2024.

Last edited by OutdoorLover; 12-21-2023 at 02:26 AM..
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Old 12-21-2023, 03:31 AM
 
Location: In the heights
37,119 posts, read 39,327,883 times
Reputation: 21197
Quote:
Originally Posted by RcHydro View Post
GM and Ford, are starting to realize investing so heavily on the new technology of EV's was not a good idea. Like playing poker and going all in with only a pair of deuces. Building what they want you to have, and not what the public wants has finally bit them in the back side.
They're realizing that it's a bad idea to believe that just because they have scale and experience with internal combustion engines that translates rapidly and smoothly to doing a good job with electric vehicles.

Right now there are quite a few automakers that invested early and continued to substantially develop their EV ventures over the last decade and a half and it's paying off. BYD is doing fantastically well as is Tesla. Geely (which operates in the US via Volvo and Polestar) are also doing a fantastic job. Hyundai Kia are doing very well. Mercedes and BMW are also surprisingly doing pretty decently. VW had a lot of hiccups and those continue, but they at least are further along and starting to get past those hiccups while GM and Ford seem to still be early on the learning curve.

So they're behind, but at least this wake up call is coming now rather than later before it really is just about impossible for them to catch up. If they wait too long, their market share would likely be swallowed and they'd need another bailout, because EVs and especially the traction battery they use are already making competitive vehicles possible and their rate of improvement means they're starting to make larger gaps between themselves and ICE counterparts on some factors and rapidly closing the gap in others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OutdoorLover View Post
Here's an Edmunds article title on the Blazer EV they purchased: "Our Chevy Blazer EV Has 23 Problems After Only 2 Months" - it's been at the dealer for 2 weeks of those 2 months. They're not thrilled.
https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/202...rm-faults.html

It's still fairly early in the Ultium platform story and I hope GM can hit another gear with it (so to speak) in 2024.
Woof. That is rough. I think this points towards them not having worked out the issues in their Ultium platform, especially in regards to software. That's quite bad, and I'm guessing their stuck between trying to make good on what they said was their initial delivery dates and delivering a very buggy product or missing those dates to try to work on the development of those products while idling production facilities they built prematurely before they had a fully functional product and meanwhile losing market share to automakers that are ready with their EV offerings.
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Old 12-21-2023, 07:51 AM
 
Location: Vallejo
21,828 posts, read 25,094,690 times
Reputation: 19059
Quote:
Originally Posted by OutdoorLover View Post
Here's an Edmunds article title on the Blazer EV they purchased: "Our Chevy Blazer EV Has 23 Problems After Only 2 Months" - it's been at the dealer for 2 weeks of those 2 months. They're not thrilled.
https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/202...rm-faults.html

It's still fairly early in the Ultium platform story and I hope GM can hit another gear with it (so to speak) in 2024.
No worries though. After much referring to the amount of advertising revenue spent, Motor Trend has decided the Chevy Blazer EV is the SUV of the upcoming year and even filmed a commercial!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyYxVutRIPA
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Old 12-21-2023, 08:20 AM
 
Location: Newburyport, MA
12,360 posts, read 9,462,379 times
Reputation: 15827
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
No worries though. After much referring to the amount of advertising revenue spent, Motor Trend has decided the Chevy Blazer EV is the SUV of the upcoming year and even filmed a commercial!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyYxVutRIPA
LOL - well, maybe it works well when it works... I am not trying to say Ultium is doomed, just that I have read persistent reports of system bugs that at a minimum interfere with the operation of the infotainment system - which carries a lot of useful functions these days, especially for the new EVs, and that can also cause issues with charging and even brick these vehicles - some owners are getting stranded. I know GM has pushed out updates to try to address problems in the Hummer and Lyriq, and there have also been some recalls to address the same. What's concerning to me is seeing a story like that one on the recent Edmunds Blazer purchase that suggest they are not past these problems yet, while Ultiums have been delivered for over a year now.
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Old 12-21-2023, 08:31 AM
 
Location: In Little Ping's Maple Dictatorship
333 posts, read 152,780 times
Reputation: 877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vision67 View Post
Meanwhile, their engineers are viewing the videos about the design of the Tesla Cybertruck and are crapping their pants.
The Cybertruck has some impressive power, but the design looks like a badly rendered vehicle from an early 90's video game. I'm also wary of the bulletproof glass turning it into a literal deathtrap if you were to get into an accident and the battery starts burning out of control.

It may be appealing to some people, but I'll stick to my Ram.
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Old 12-21-2023, 11:55 AM
 
Location: Floribama
18,949 posts, read 43,565,220 times
Reputation: 18753
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
They're realizing that it's a bad idea to believe that just because they have scale and experience with internal combustion engines that translates rapidly and smoothly to doing a good job with electric vehicles.

Right now there are quite a few automakers that invested early and continued to substantially develop their EV ventures over the last decade and a half and it's paying off. BYD is doing fantastically well as is Tesla. Geely (which operates in the US via Volvo and Polestar) are also doing a fantastic job. Hyundai Kia are doing very well. Mercedes and BMW are also surprisingly doing pretty decently. VW had a lot of hiccups and those continue, but they at least are further along and starting to get past those hiccups while GM and Ford seem to still be early on the learning curve.

So they're behind, but at least this wake up call is coming now rather than later before it really is just about impossible for them to catch up. If they wait too long, their market share would likely be swallowed and they'd need another bailout, because EVs and especially the traction battery they use are already making competitive vehicles possible and their rate of improvement means they're starting to make larger gaps between themselves and ICE counterparts on some factors and rapidly closing the gap in others.



Woof. That is rough. I think this points towards them not having worked out the issues in their Ultium platform, especially in regards to software. That's quite bad, and I'm guessing their stuck between trying to make good on what they said was their initial delivery dates and delivering a very buggy product or missing those dates to try to work on the development of those products while idling production facilities they built prematurely before they had a fully functional product and meanwhile losing market share to automakers that are ready with their EV offerings.
I don't know. GM came out with the Volt in 2011 and it's a VERY complex vehicle, yet has been fairly reliable. BEVs should be even more simple than the Volt, or at least they're supposed to be. The Bolt has had few issues, outside of the LG battery recall.

GM has more experience with EVs than most people give them credit for.
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Old 12-21-2023, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Newburyport, MA
12,360 posts, read 9,462,379 times
Reputation: 15827
Quote:
Originally Posted by southernnaturelover View Post
I don't know. GM came out with the Volt in 2011 and it's a VERY complex vehicle, yet has been fairly reliable. BEVs should be even more simple than the Volt, or at least they're supposed to be. The Bolt has had few issues, outside of the LG battery recall.

GM has more experience with EVs than most people give them credit for.
So, here is an extract from the Edmunds article. GM has called in reinforcements and has had an ace mechanic from another dealer there as well as an engineer from corporate onsite, and they still haven't fixed everything - do you think this is normal and acceptable?

Quote:
"As of this writing, our Blazer EV has 23 different issues that need fixing, more than a few of which we consider serious. The car has been at the dealer for two weeks so far, and we still don't know when or how the fixes, repairs or updates will be implemented. The dealership has told us that an engineer from GM and a technician from a different dealership have been working on the Blazer, but we haven't heard specifics on what it is they're working on and still don't have an estimate of how long it will take until everything is resolved. Credit where it's due though, we appreciate that Chevrolet has worked to bring in support from two people who don't normally work at that dealership to try and help solve our Blazer's problems.

All of our Blazer EV's faults:
  1. Short Range Radar Rear Sensor – Middle
  2. Body Control Module (Lost Communication with Rear Side Door Window Switch – Left)
  3. Body Control Module (Lost Communication with Rear Side Door Window Switch – Right)
  4. Drive Motor Control Module
  5. Drive Motor Control Module (Lost Communication with Serial Data Gateway Module on CAN Bus 2)
  6. Drive Motor Control Module 2 (Lost Communication with Serial Data Gateway Module on CAN Bus 2)
  7. Radio (Head-up Display, General Electrical Malfunction)
  8. Battery Energy Control Module (Lost Communication with Serial Data Gateway Module on CAN Bus 2)
  9. Side Obstacle Detection Control Module – Right
  10. Radio (Invalid Data Received from Serial Data Gateway Module)
  11. Body Control Module (Invalid Data Received from Serial Data Gateway Module)
  12. Driver Seat Adjuster Memory Module
  13. Side Obstacle Detection Control Module – Left
  14. Radio
  15. Body Control Module
  16. Brake System Control Module (Lost Communication with Radio on CAN Bus 5)
  17. Battery Energy Control Module (Invalid Data Received from Serial Data Gateway Module)
  18. Battery Energy Control Module (Air Conditioning – Refrigerant Charge Low)
  19. Drive Motor Control Module (Hybrid/Electric Powertrain Control Module 2 Requested Malfunction Indicator Lamp Illumination
  20. Radio (Ethernet Bus 2)
  21. Body Control Module (Inside Air Temperature Sensor Signal)
  22. Body Control Module (Windshield Rain Sensor)
  23. Battery Energy Control Module (Lost Communication with Lighting Control Module)
"

Last edited by OutdoorLover; 12-21-2023 at 03:32 PM..
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Old 12-21-2023, 04:36 PM
 
Location: In the heights
37,119 posts, read 39,327,883 times
Reputation: 21197
Quote:
Originally Posted by southernnaturelover View Post
I don't know. GM came out with the Volt in 2011 and it's a VERY complex vehicle, yet has been fairly reliable. BEVs should be even more simple than the Volt, or at least they're supposed to be. The Bolt has had few issues, outside of the LG battery recall.

GM has more experience with EVs than most people give them credit for.
I'm not sure how you're gauging what most people give them credit for, but it seems pretty apparent that GM has not had enough experience to roll out Ultium smoothly. It's been over two years of *production* at this point and new products on Ultium after all that feedback and reworking still seem to have an unreasonably high number of severe issues.

Contrast that with another established automaker launching a new EV dedicated platform like Volkswagen with MEB which was released a little bit earlier. While there were certainly some initial hiccups, Volkswagen was able to scale this a lot more rapidly and didn't generally have what seemed like anything near as severe of issues and certainly not two years after production launch.

The gold standard among established automakers that sell in the US would probably be something like Hyundai Kia with the e-GMP platform which has scaled rapidly in both numbers and in the number of models. These vehicles have generally been very competitive and Hyundai Kia in the US market now is second in EV market share within the US and also rapidly expanding its presence in Europe and Southeast Asia.

Like OutdoorLover, I don't think GM's issues with Ultium will necessarily be doomed, but it's certainly having what seems to be a notably rough and prolonged roll out.
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Old 12-21-2023, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Floribama
18,949 posts, read 43,565,220 times
Reputation: 18753
Quote:
Originally Posted by OutdoorLover View Post
So, here is an extract from the Edmunds article. GM has called in reinforcements and has had an ace mechanic from another dealer there as well as an engineer from corporate onsite, and they still haven't fixed everything - do you think this is normal and acceptable?
I don't think it's normal or acceptable, I'm just saying it's odd considering GM has had EV experience for over a decade now.

I bet all of those fault codes come back to a single issue. Maybe a bad BECM or something.
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