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Old 12-13-2023, 07:43 AM
 
Location: Newburyport, MA
11,867 posts, read 8,961,279 times
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GM announced recently that it will delay the launch of several planned EVs - the Equinox EV, Silverado RST EV and GMC Sierra Denali EV until late 2025.

I've seen three factors cited in this decision:
- manufacturing overcapacity as so many automakers introducing new EV models at once
- the continued falling of battery prices, which makes it attractive to wait for them to fall more
- a desire to refine the designs and manufacturing process for these vehicles

"Barra says that costs to build the the company’s EV products are quickly falling, including a 45-percent decrease to the cost of batteries in the last 12 months.

'We also expect to achieve significant margin improvement on our battery-electric trucks through engineering efficiency and improvements, supplier costs, and reducing order complexity, buildable combinations and manufacturing complexity', Barra said.
"

https://www.thedrive.com/news/gm-del...sembly-by-year
https://gmauthority.com/blog/2023/10...gmc-sierra-ev/
https://electrek.co/2023/10/24/gm-de...-update-in-q3/

There is of course an alternative view that you want to be aggressive so as to establish your market presence in a new product sector, and because the market value of new engineering designs falls with time. Too complicated for me to have an opinion.

Last edited by OutdoorLover; 12-13-2023 at 08:44 AM..
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Old 12-13-2023, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Concord, CA
7,120 posts, read 9,185,840 times
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I think GM designed it with too costly assemblies; i.e. the design is obsolete before it's shipped.

If they offered it at a price that would return a profit the customers won't buy it.

So I think they're holding off for cheaper batteries.

Meanwhile, their engineers are viewing the videos about the design of the Tesla Cybertruck and are crapping their pants.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5zD...nnel=MunroLive
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Old 12-15-2023, 04:42 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
21,599 posts, read 24,739,140 times
Reputation: 18835
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vision67 View Post
I think GM designed it with too costly assemblies; i.e. the design is obsolete before it's shipped.

If they offered it at a price that would return a profit the customers won't buy it.

So I think they're holding off for cheaper batteries.

Meanwhile, their engineers are viewing the videos about the design of the Tesla Cybertruck and are crapping their pants.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5zD...nnel=MunroLive
Not so sure about the Cybertruck. Likewise that one is a big fail on the marketing hype. It starts at 80k with vague promise (like GM) of a future one that starts at 60k. Compared with the fake 40k pricing, it's a complete fail. The difference with the Cybertruck (and the Hummer) is that people will buy them at 80-100k. Nobody wants a $60,000 Equinox.

The Blazer EV starts at 65k. That's an oversaturated market with all the entries like the Mach-E, Ioniq 5, and similar things like the ID.4, Polestar 2, BMW i4 aren't exactly selling like hotcakes. There's only so many people that want to spend that kind of money for vehicles that should be priced starting around 30k. Look at the gas Blazer reviews. Aside from being a terrible name for the vehicle the major issue with it is price. Starting at 37k with a V6 AWD model at 44k, it's basically this thing is okay but costs too much and you can get better value somewhere else. It's too expensive. Now Chevy wants to introduce an Blazer EV that starts at 65k instead of the 44k that the V6 AWD Blazer starts at. Yes, it has a party trick. It will do 0-60 in 4 seconds. Which would be cool except that's not like it's fast in EV land. That's the party trick they mostly have. People buying Blazers and Equinoxes and RAV4s don't want to spend 20k to do 0-60 in 4 seconds. They just want something that gets decent gas mileage, has decent cargo space, and doesn't cost a lot. They don't care if it can race stoplights with a 20-year-old Corvette.

If the depreciation stick hits the Blazer EV as I expect, you'll be picking up used ones for around 40k flat on the used market with low miles. It's the same with the Polestar 2 that I have or the Mach-E. Let someone else take the huge depreciation hit. These aren't X5, GLE, RX, XC90 grade vehicles you should be paying 60-70k for.
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Old 12-20-2023, 05:36 AM
 
Location: Newburyport, MA
11,867 posts, read 8,961,279 times
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I have been reading of issues on the Hummer, Lyric, and Blazer EVs - all kinds of electronic and software issues with these Ultium platform vehicles that range from minor irritations to disabling the vehicle. I don't know if this has risen to the level of the infamous VW EV platform issues, but it seems to be more than the usual new model bugs. This could also be part of why GM isn't producing these vehicles that quickly - maybe they're trying to buy more time to fix things and trying to p--- off fewer customers.

These traditional car companies are not tech companies, and I think most, if not all have underestimated how hard digital technology is to develop from the ground up and do well.

Last edited by OutdoorLover; 12-20-2023 at 05:53 AM..
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Old 12-20-2023, 07:15 AM
 
Location: Western PA
10,150 posts, read 4,101,846 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OutdoorLover View Post

These traditional car companies are not tech companies, and I think most, if not all have underestimated how hard digital technology is to develop from the ground up and do well.

lol, yet, they invented it.


methinks you might not understand 'traditional car companies' as much as you would like....crack open the books (and google) and learn away. Ask if you get stuck.
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Old 12-20-2023, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Newburyport, MA
11,867 posts, read 8,961,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RetireinPA View Post
lol, yet, they invented it.


methinks you might not understand 'traditional car companies' as much as you would like....crack open the books (and google) and learn away. Ask if you get stuck.
Volkswagen has essentially outsourced their EV software platform to a Chinese firm after failing so badly for so long. GM appears to be in serious trouble. Ford CEO Jim Farley said Ford had a lot to learn and was adapting as quickly as they could. You're very "confident" - telling me I need to educate myself. Maybe it's you who needs to do that.
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Old 12-20-2023, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Newburyport, MA
11,867 posts, read 8,961,279 times
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P.S. @RetireinPA - I apologize for replying to your post. I have you on ignore but broke discipline and clicked on "View Post" and then jumped in to reply. That was a mistake.
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Old 12-20-2023, 07:25 PM
 
Location: In the heights
36,881 posts, read 38,781,820 times
Reputation: 20894
Quote:
Originally Posted by OutdoorLover View Post
I have been reading of issues on the Hummer, Lyric, and Blazer EVs - all kinds of electronic and software issues with these Ultium platform vehicles that range from minor irritations to disabling the vehicle. I don't know if this has risen to the level of the infamous VW EV platform issues, but it seems to be more than the usual new model bugs. This could also be part of why GM isn't producing these vehicles that quickly - maybe they're trying to buy more time to fix things and trying to p--- off fewer customers.

These traditional car companies are not tech companies, and I think most, if not all have underestimated how hard digital technology is to develop from the ground up and do well.
Yea, I think it's quite likely that the primary underlying reason for delaying their EV rollout in the near term is that they are a lot of kinks they still need to work out on the Ultium platform. They very much slow-rolled the Cadillac Lyriq release and offered discounts to early adopters to sign NDAs to not talk to the press about their vehicles. My guess is that the were behind in working out the kinks, most likely primarily software kinks or at least were initially identified as software kinks, but they thought they can slow roll a trickle out and get some real world usage from a limited run and that they'd be able to figure things out.

And then that ended up taking much longer than expected and they're *still* working out the issues and so they're up against a hard decision of either (1) further delays to deliver a less buggy product and then idling a lot of plants and workers or (2) deliver a faulty product that would further tarnish their reputation and/or incur a lot of repairs or potential legal exposure. It seems like they opted for a middle road that tried for a limited run of (2), but that the fixes are taking so long that it's now bleeding into (1).

It's a tough place for GM to be at, and it's somewhat similar to what VW has been facing though VW with its earlier release of vehicles on its MEB platforms seems to be much further along with ironing out its issues. If GM basically follows VW's trajectory but with just a later start, then I'd expect there to be a series of significant fixes over the next year or two that will be annoying for owners but usually not absolutely terrible, and then eventually they'll get to a pace where it's fairly solid. And like VW, getting to fairly solid years after initial launch wasn't what they were aiming for, but rather strong market domination trying to leverage their size and collective experience.

It does seem like there's still quite a bit of room for fairly new EV-dedicated companies to take a lot of market share. It seems like the major established automakers are finding the transition in terms of designing and producing solid, competitive electric vehicles to be quite a bit harder than expected.

Ford seems to be doing okay, but not great.

Stellantis has had no releases yet in the US market (though the Peugeot / Citroen side of things in Europe is actually doing pretty well with smaller vehicle).

The Japanese automakers have all been underwhelming so far.

VW is doing well with its EVs in the US market after weathering an initial rough start.

It seems like Hyundai / Kia, BMW, and Mercedes are doing pretty well in the US market and have developed and produced some very competitive vehicles without major hiccups.
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Old 12-20-2023, 08:54 PM
 
Location: Western PA
10,150 posts, read 4,101,846 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OutdoorLover View Post
P.S. @RetireinPA - I apologize for replying to your post. I have you on ignore but broke discipline and clicked on "View Post" and then jumped in to reply. That was a mistake.

only because you dont know what you are talking about, You are not a 'tech' guy and you are not a 'car' guy and I believe you 100%. reality is, the 'traditional automaker' Is going to sell 98% of the product. And warrant it. They have 98% of the customer base who have said, with no ambiguity, why they are not buying these.


The promised cash infusion from uncle sugar is NEVER coming and they are all publicly traded. The bottom line and the board, will rule this one.



they cannot continue to ramp up producing a product, no one is buying. You dont need to be a car guy or tech guy to understand this. By your own admission, you are not a member of any 'traditional automaker', nor know anyone who is, and just got your first new car, but somehow you have spot on market analysis?



This kinda flies in the face of rationality given that everyone who is slowing the pace of EV roll outs has said why. Again, with no ambiguity. What were their EXACT words?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GM
GM said it no longer will provide EV production targets so it can build to market demand,

Oh.


Golly.



well, that seems like, um, COMPLETELY different from what you claimed 'Jim & Mary' told you. Who am I to believe? Oh whom oh whom?!?!?! <---yes, I am absolutely being facetious only to point out the foolishness. If you are going to pontificate on 'digital technology' I would have thought you would understand it first. But alas...




...You started the thread telling us that it was due to 'digital technology' (whhooooo scary) but gave no examples for no other reason than you have none.


AND...the market trends, as they have been for the last 30 years are STILL in place and not reversing, and shows zero signs of abating.


as an interesting aside, GM, namely chevy has just started an advertising campaign for exactly 3 vehicles that are holding the line on price for 2024. 1) trax, 2)bolt 3) colorado. Aside from one being a truck and the LEAST selling pickup truck, it still outsells, almost 2:1 the other two. If ANYTHING you have ever said on the subject were even partly true, that factoid would NOT be.


(PS the cadillac Lyric which you almost referenced, YoY has increased sales over 8200%. No, I do not have the decimal point in the wrong place.



Its called 'reading the room'



Nevertheless, lets say they are LOW RISK to hold the line on. Both the others are similar in size and capability. But, one is $7000 LESS.


So if the 'traditional automakers' are (smartly and correctly) recognizing that the new product has to be FLAWLESS because 98% of the public are skeptical and the pricing favors the traditional model, well, dont have to be a tech guy and car guy to see which way the wind blows. Add in range anxiety and lack of infrastructure. Its why they are paid the big bux and you aint?


All those things - you have 4300 posts telling us do not matter - apparently do, in the real world.


Whodathunkit.


So go back to whatever it is you do. I reiterate, you dont know what you are talking about and my offer to help you, is not indefinite.



As for what you CLAIM Farley said, this is what he actually said:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Farley
This is not an EV revolution. This is a digital shift to a digital product,” he said. Every car company is trying to figure out how to profit as dashboards turn into iPhones on wheels, and what kind of subscriptions they can sell. That’s not just new revenue but carries far higher profit margins than vehicles alone

Gee, once again that is completely different from what you claimed, AND, actually has nothing to do with cars.....
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Old 12-20-2023, 09:36 PM
 
Location: Coastal Mid-Atlantic
6,706 posts, read 4,355,906 times
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GM and Ford, are starting to realize investing so heavily on the new technology of EV's was not a good idea. Like playing poker and going all in with only a pair of deuces. Building what they want you to have, and not what the public wants has finally bit them in the back side.
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