Naperville subdivisions- Tall Grass or White Eagle? (Chicago, Worth: house, neighborhood)
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Mindset is CRITICALLY important as is the SOURCE of the income and COSTS associated with living in different parts of country.
I honestly can agree with the numerical range on a broad level, but those national numbers have a whole lot of people living in some dirt cheap communities -- how many time have we seen posters in the various Chicago and suburban forums ask a getting "new construction, 30 minutes from work and under $xxxK"??? Given our high cost of living I would say any "family of four" that is not making about 50% more than the national median income is really going to be STRUGGLING.
For folks who have a large portion of their income "locked in" either becuase of sound investments OR guaranteed payments they threshold for them to have the mindset of "rich folks" is FAR LOWER than for folks whose WAGES can be slashed due to the whims of the workplace.
Who does not know of even some "high income" upper management type with WAGES to match in the six figure++ range that has not had their lives up ended through mergers, layoffs, economic downturn, etc?? Are you really gonna call them "rich"??
What about the many STATE PENSIONERS that have current incomes in that high range? Are they rich? If they live like they have all their material wants taken care of and the states slashes their healthcare or opens up Pandora's box and adjusts their CURRENT pension pay-outs will they be "rich"???
Do a quick calculation on what it costs to send kids to ANY KIND of school public or private, elementary through university and the huge costs that such an endeavor means for most any family with school age kids means that no one with a bank balance that does not look like a PowerBall payout can be called rich in my book...
I know surgeons and partners at law firms that have incomes larger than the POTUS of the US in good years and expenses that eat up all but a fraction of those earnings. Are they rich? Many of the well off physicians from India or other places have their parents and inlaws living with them. They are supporting six or more adults and several children. Are they rich? If governmental health care changes dimish their earnings what will happen to these multi-generational households?
Take the "psychological" aspect out of it. What I'm saying is that households making $30,000 to $70,000 a year, ARE THE MIDDLE CLASS OF AMERICAN EARNINGS. The median household income in 2008 was $50,303. I use the $30-$70k as the middle class liberally, since factually that is more than the 33% that makes up a true "middle class" of household income.
So pretend if you want that a household making $100k a year is still "kind of" middle class, but that's just what your doing, pretending. That's because if a household makes $100k a year, it puts said household in the top 20% of household income. Sorry, not middle class, except in some peoples imagination. http://www.census.gov/prod/2009pubs/p60-236.pdf
Dude, I am a little above the upper range of your naive "empirical" argument. I am in no way "rich". I was fortunate to buy my home in '97 in the low $300's, have a 9 year old car and a 4 year old car. Don't go out much and buy many clothes at Target. I do feel fortunate to have these things, to live in a nice, safe neighborhood with very good schools, libraries and parks and to have a start on retirement $. Compared to many we are very blessed. BUT to say I am (financially) rich because it exceeds your empirical earnings definition is ludicrous. Now if you define my wealth emotionally, then I am truly rich with everything we have.
In my mind being financially rich means you have NO money worries. It may be hard for you to believe, but there are plenty of $100K earners who are far from rich because of the cost of living. It's not in our "imagination" just in the reality of trying to keep expenditures below income even when living an unextravagant, middle class life style.
You ever read the book "The Millionaire Next Door"? If not, you should-it's a good read, informative and interesting. May really burst your bubble in defining who is rich.
Last edited by cubssoxfan; 05-06-2011 at 03:04 PM..
Take the "psychological" aspect out of it. What I'm saying is that households making $30,000 to $70,000 a year, ARE THE MIDDLE CLASS OF AMERICAN EARNINGS. The median household income in 2008 was $50,303. I use the $30-$70k as the middle class liberally, since factually that is more than the 33% that makes up a true "middle class" of household income.
So pretend if you want that a household making $100k a year is still "kind of" middle class, but that's just what your doing, pretending. That's because if a household makes $100k a year, it puts said household in the top 20% of household income. Sorry, not middle class, except in some peoples imagination. http://www.census.gov/prod/2009pubs/p60-236.pdf
Middle class doesn't have to be the middle 1/3 or middle 40% or whatever.
A family making $120k in one of these subdivisions in Naperville probably has a lot more in common with a family making $60k across town in terms of lifestyle and the tradeoffs they have to make than they do with a family making $600k. So it's not surprising they would consider themselves middle class.
Someone making 100K in a high cost of living area may have the median income for that area. Doesn't that make them middle class for where they live? $100k in NYC may not go as far as $40k in Iowa would in terms of lifestyle. Likewise, someone making $60k in rural Alabama may be considered well off. You can't just look at income, you need to look at cost of living too.
Middle class doesn't have to be the middle 1/3 or middle 40% or whatever.
A family making $120k in one of these subdivisions in Naperville probably has a lot more in common with a family making $60k across town in terms of lifestyle and the tradeoffs they have to make than they do with a family making $600k. So it's not surprising they would consider themselves middle class.
Someone making 100K in a high cost of living area may have the median income for that area. Doesn't that make them middle class for where they live? $100k in NYC may not go as far as $40k in Iowa would in terms of lifestyle. Likewise, someone making $60k in rural Alabama may be considered well off. You can't just look at income, you need to look at cost of living too.
Great point, someone making a 100k sure has a lot more in common and a lot of the same money problems, life issues, etc than they do with someone pulling in a couple million a year.
Also, why is the 100k person rich as opposed to the 30k person being poor. I would argue 100k is far from rich and is middle class, somene making 30k or heck evne two earners bringing in 60k is not going to be able to afford a medical emergency, college for kids, 2 reliable cars, etc all things that typically are thoght of as being middle class.
Also, someone making 100k in new york is in a whole differnet situation than someone making 100k in boise, ID. Is one middle class and the other isn't because according to you they are in the top 15%?
The person is Boise, ID will probably have acres and acres of land, nice trucks, a boat or 4 wheeler, sending kids to cheap in state college, etc.
The one in New York will be paying 5k-10k for private school, have a small house or condo if they even own at all, paying higher college tuition, etc.
Great point, someone making a 100k sure has a lot more in common and a lot of the same money problems, life issues, etc than they do with someone pulling in a couple million a year.
Also, why is the 100k person rich as opposed to the 30k person being poor. I would argue 100k is far from rich and is middle class, somene making 30k or heck evne two earners bringing in 60k is not going to be able to afford a medical emergency, college for kids, 2 reliable cars, etc all things that typically are thoght of as being middle class.
Also, someone making 100k in new york is in a whole differnet situation than someone making 100k in boise, ID. Is one middle class and the other isn't because according to you they are in the top 15%?
The person is Boise, ID will probably have acres and acres of land, nice trucks, a boat or 4 wheeler, sending kids to cheap in state college, etc.
The one in New York will be paying 5k-10k for private school, have a small house or condo if they even own at all, paying higher college tuition, etc.
What? Do you know Todd Henderson? You keep arguing that. See where it gets you.
Middle class doesn't have to be the middle 1/3 or middle 40% or whatever.
A family making $120k in one of these subdivisions in Naperville probably has a lot more in common with a family making $60k across town in terms of lifestyle and the tradeoffs they have to make than they do with a family making $600k. So it's not surprising they would consider themselves middle class.
Someone making 100K in a high cost of living area may have the median income for that area. Doesn't that make them middle class for where they live? $100k in NYC may not go as far as $40k in Iowa would in terms of lifestyle. Likewise, someone making $60k in rural Alabama may be considered well off. You can't just look at income, you need to look at cost of living too.
Oh, yes, the Todd Henderson school of "woe is me" since I have to make "sacrifices" I must be middle class, since I'm struggling.
Dude, I am a little above the upper range of your naive "empirical" argument. I am in no way "rich". I was fortunate to buy my home in '97 in the low $300's, have a 9 year old car and a 4 year old car. Don't go out much and buy many clothes at Target. I do feel fortunate to have these things, to live in a nice, safe neighborhood with very good schools, libraries and parks and to have a start on retirement $. Compared to many we are very blessed. BUT to say I am (financially) rich because it exceeds your empirical earnings definition is ludicrous. Now if you define my wealth emotionally, then I am truly rich with everything we have.
In my mind being financially rich means you have NO money worries. It may be hard for you to believe, but there are plenty of $100K earners who are far from rich because of the cost of living. It's not in our "imagination" just in the reality of trying to keep expenditures below income even when living an unextravagant, middle class life style.
You ever read the book "The Millionaire Next Door"? If not, you should-it's a good read, informative and interesting. May really burst your bubble in defining who is rich.
Todd, is that you? I really don't care what you have, or how you "feel". We'll never meet and you could be the Pope or you could be a pauper. It's all really make believe here, isn't it. Facts are facts though. You go out on the street, any street and declare that your family brings in a $100,000 or more and I guarantee you that 90-95% of them will define you as rich.
Mindset is CRITICALLY important as is the SOURCE of the income and COSTS associated with living in different parts of country.
I honestly can agree with the numerical range on a broad level, but those national numbers have a whole lot of people living in some dirt cheap communities -- how many time have we seen posters in the various Chicago and suburban forums ask a getting "new construction, 30 minutes from work and under $xxxK"??? Given our high cost of living I would say any "family of four" that is not making about 50% more than the national median income is really going to be STRUGGLING.
For folks who have a large portion of their income "locked in" either becuase of sound investments OR guaranteed payments they threshold for them to have the mindset of "rich folks" is FAR LOWER than for folks whose WAGES can be slashed due to the whims of the workplace.
Who does not know of even some "high income" upper management type with WAGES to match in the six figure++ range that has not had their lives up ended through mergers, layoffs, economic downturn, etc?? Are you really gonna call them "rich"??
What about the many STATE PENSIONERS that have current incomes in that high range? Are they rich? If they live like they have all their material wants taken care of and the states slashes their healthcare or opens up Pandora's box and adjusts their CURRENT pension pay-outs will they be "rich"???
Do a quick calculation on what it costs to send kids to ANY KIND of school public or private, elementary through university and the huge costs that such an endeavor means for most any family with school age kids means that no one with a bank balance that does not look like a PowerBall payout can be called rich in my book...
I know surgeons and partners at law firms that have incomes larger than the POTUS of the US in good years and expenses that eat up all but a fraction of those earnings. Are they rich? Many of the well off physicians from India or other places have their parents and inlaws living with them. They are supporting six or more adults and several children. Are they rich? If governmental health care changes dimish their earnings what will happen to these multi-generational households?
It seems that too many forget that what hurts the rich, hurts the middle class and lower class even more. Making the choice between which private schools you send your kid is vastly different than choosing between a doctor appt. and food.
Todd, is that you? I really don't care what you have, or how you "feel". We'll never meet and you could be the Pope or you could be a pauper. It's all really make believe here, isn't it. Facts are facts though. You go out on the street, any street and declare that your family brings in a $100,000 or more and I guarantee you that 90-95% of them will define you as rich.
Well, when you grow up and have a family and the associated costs and need to worry about more then going out and getting hammered, let's talk again. Medical, braces, school fees (YES, even at public schools-costs are increasing and fees for sports and band and books are increasing) sports/park district, clothing food, shelter etc. etc. So stop telling us what we are and what we should be; it smacks of resentment, narrow-mindedness and intolerance.
Well, when you grow up and have a family and the associated costs and need to worry about more then going out and getting hammered, let's talk again. Medical, braces, school fees (YES, even at public schools-costs are increasing and fees for sports and band and books are increasing) sports/park district, clothing food, shelter etc. etc. So stop telling us what we are and what we should be; it smacks of resentment, narrow-mindedness and intolerance.
I see, so stating income as a fact of figuring economic class is "resentful, narrow minded and intolerant"? Wow. I must have missed that in statistics.
Anyway, not sure why I'm continuing to debate (but I will anyway) with you since earlier you stated....
Quote:
Originally Posted by cubssoxfan
In my mind being financially rich means you have NO money worries. It may be hard for you to believe, but there are plenty of $100K earners who are far from rich because of the cost of living. It's not in our "imagination" just in the reality of trying to keep expenditures below income even when living an unextravagant, middle class life style.
With that in mind, if you could just stop worrying about the fees (that I supposedly don't pay because I'm not "grown up") that you mentioned earlier, you'd be RICH, and if we could all just not worry about those fees we could all live happy and wealthy in your world of make believe....right?
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What? Do you know Todd Henderson? You keep arguing that. See where it gets you.
