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I don't think it is "most" clubs that have waiting lists -- heck I think I read something that the Hinsdale Central High School Golf squad was "recruiting" kids that had no prior experience on the links... It is a time consuming road to build players that enjoy what is, even at the highest levels of play, a languid moving sport in an age when even old farts seem to keep active in work out classes, paddle tennis, ice hockey and marathons...
Agreed (about much of the state of golf), but what I was getting at is that, most North Shore and "Hinsdale area" clubs still have waiting lists. The club was the center of the members social lives for generations. Clubs on the South Side had waiting lists until 2005... Now, if you're breathing (and then maybe not), and your check clears, you're in. The "truly" affluent have moved out of the area. BUT, you have homes that sold for $1 million a few years ago, that had reasonable taxes of $35k (for a home of that value). Now the home is worth $350k, and the taxes are still $35k... and going up...
The people that can afford $35k in taxes might as well buy the $1 million dollar home in Hinsdale.
I was only using the clubs closing on the south side vs. elsewhere as indicative of the economic and social demographics.
Nowhere in this post did you tell us one country club that is going out of bussiness. Could it be that you're making stuff up? Can you name a south side country club that used to have a waiting list but doesn't anymore?
Nowhere in this post did you tell us one country club that is going out of bussiness. Could it be that you're making stuff up? Can you name a south side country club that used to have a waiting list but doesn't anymore?
ALL of them. These are private matters, but as a member of one of these clubs, I know what I am talking about. Ravisloe was a private club for 100 years. Luckily public now, and not a housing development.
There was a time when ALL had waiting lists. The north shore and elsewhere still do, but that may change (due to many of the above cited reasons), but I was only trying to illustrate that it happened on the south side first... and those north shore "probably" won't decay as some of the surrounding areas.... Nice drive through Markam on the way to the city...
The area is certainly beautiful, but the taxes are way out of line for what a citizen gets, compared to what is offered elsewhere.
I am attempting to illustrate that unless someone has "ties", they are going to move to the area that makes the most economic sense. The "club" used to tie people to the community, many living adjacent or near-by - for generations. These clubs are being killed "as the golden goose", with the belief that "they can afford it", but to be honest the members are smarter than that. In the end, they will just leave, and the bank will be holding the bag, with the community out the jobs and tax revenue they provided.
There seems to be this belief that "people that have more, should pay more", but what they fail to realize is that in "most" cases the reason these people have more is for two reason, greater opportunity, and they think about their decisions more than others, so given the option, they are going to invest their money in the places where it makes the most sense.
When your taxes are the same as an area with "almost no violent crime", the surrounding communities are sound, and you have "top tier" schools, what is going to be the incentive for "people with choice" to stay???
ALL of them. These are private matters, but as a member of one of these clubs, I know what I am talking about. Ravisloe was a private club for 100 years. Luckily public now, and not a housing development.
There was a time when ALL had waiting lists. The north shore and elsewhere still do, but that may change (due to many of the above cited reasons), but I was only trying to illustrate that it happened on the south side first... and those north shore "probably" won't decay as some of the surrounding areas.... Nice drive through Markam on the way to the city...
The area is certainly beautiful, but the taxes are way out of line for what a citizen gets, compared to what is offered elsewhere.
I am attempting to illustrate that unless someone has "ties", they are going to move to the area that makes the most economic sense. The "club" used to tie people to the community, many living adjacent or near-by - for generations. These clubs are being killed "as the golden goose", with the belief that "they can afford it", but to be honest the members are smarter than that. In the end, they will just leave, and the bank will be holding the bag, with the community out the jobs and tax revenue they provided.
There seems to be this belief that "people that have more, should pay more", but what they fail to realize is that in "most" cases the reason these people have more is for two reason, greater opportunity, and they think about their decisions more than others, so given the option, they are going to invest their money in the places where it makes the most sense.
When your taxes are the same as an area with "almost no violent crime", the surrounding communities are sound, and you have "top tier" schools, what is going to be the incentive for "people with choice" to stay???
Just to be clear, the first wave is the "easy target" institutions - the "affluent" private clubs, and multi-national corporations, then, your "provide for all / corrupt" local government will need to resort to increasing taxes on the smaller businesses (after the "private" and "corporations" leave), which will then put more "well to do" locals out of work/business, starting a very destructive downward spiral.
Trust me, a lot, if not most, of the staff at our club made a decent living, especially given the fact that many probably wouldn't be able to get third-shift at a 7-11. But those jobs will be going away...
ALL of them. These are private matters, but as a member of one of these clubs, I know what I am talking about. Ravisloe was a private club for 100 years. Luckily public now, and not a housing development.
There was a time when ALL had waiting lists. The north shore and elsewhere still do, but that may change (due to many of the above cited reasons), but I was only trying to illustrate that it happened on the south side first... and those north shore "probably" won't decay as some of the surrounding areas.... Nice drive through Markam on the way to the city...
The area is certainly beautiful, but the taxes are way out of line for what a citizen gets, compared to what is offered elsewhere.
I am attempting to illustrate that unless someone has "ties", they are going to move to the area that makes the most economic sense. The "club" used to tie people to the community, many living adjacent or near-by - for generations. These clubs are being killed "as the golden goose", with the belief that "they can afford it", but to be honest the members are smarter than that. In the end, they will just leave, and the bank will be holding the bag, with the community out the jobs and tax revenue they provided.
There seems to be this belief that "people that have more, should pay more", but what they fail to realize is that in "most" cases the reason these people have more is for two reason, greater opportunity, and they think about their decisions more than others, so given the option, they are going to invest their money in the places where it makes the most sense.
When your taxes are the same as an area with "almost no violent crime", the surrounding communities are sound, and you have "top tier" schools, what is going to be the incentive for "people with choice" to stay???
I'll tell you one powerful incentive for some people to live in Flossmoor. It's having ties to the south suburbs that have nothing to do with country clubs.
Last edited by urza216; 04-23-2013 at 12:28 AM..
Reason: made my long sentence into two sentences
I think you have little or no understanding of what a county club, is, "was" or is meant to be, but everyone is entitled to their opinion, however misinformed it may be.
You do realize that "Flossmoor" was founded around the county club... In fact, they brought the train station there, before that, it was little more than poor farming land (due to the elevation AND flooding).
Maybe you need to do a little more research on the area you are obviously very fond of.
I think you have little or no understanding of what a county club, is, "was" or is meant to be, but everyone is entitled to their opinion, however misinformed it may be.
You do realize that "Flossmoor" was founded around the county club... In fact, they brought the train station there, before that, it was little more than poor farming land (due to the elevation AND flooding).
Maybe you need to do a little more research on the area you are obviously very fond of.
You don't seem to understand that there are "truly affluent" people in the south suburbs that stay for reasons other than county club membership.. Ties to the south suburbs is one reason. Another major reason is the desire to live around affluent blacks.. A wealthy Flossmoor resident COULD move to Willmette or Hinsdale but some actually prefer areas that aren't lily white. It's the same reason why some wealthy people like living in Oak Park or Evanston. Flossmoor and surrounding areas have quite a bit more blacks than Oak Park or Evanston though.
1) You are absolutely correct about the property taxes harming property values in flossmoor and surrounding areas. Particularly in Olympia Fields as well. The central point of the recent local elections was around this matter.
2) The country clubs in the area have some of most challenging courses in the country and they aren't going anywhere. The Olympia Fields country club will be hosting the 2015 U.S Amateurs. And Hosted the 2003 U.S Open. Two of the most prestigious competitions in golf. Flossmoor and Calumet are both excellent classic courses. It's just not feasible to reproduce those type of coarses in today's market. If you appreciate the game of golf then you should already know this. Ravisloe was sold to a wealthy philanthropist in 2008 who has invested millions in the conservation of the course and facilities. When Ravisloe was private it was never nearly as highly regarded as the other area country clubs. Ravisloe is now public and is regarded as one of the best public courses in the chicagoland area.
3) The better alternatives to Flossmoor and Olympia Fields are far away. Hinsdale and Oak Brook are about a 35 minute drive from flossmoor. Hardly a hop, skip, and jump. About the same distance as downtown chicago is from Flossmoor.
1) You are absolutely correct about the property taxes harming property values in flossmoor and surrounding areas. Particularly in Olympia Fields as well. The central point of the recent local elections was around this matter.
2) The country clubs in the area have some of most challenging courses in the country and they aren't going anywhere. The Olympia Fields country club will be hosting the 2015 U.S Amateurs. And Hosted the 2003 U.S Open. Two of the most prestigious competitions in golf. Flossmoor and Calumet are both excellent classic courses. It's just not feasible to reproduce those type of coarses in today's market. If you appreciate the game of golf then you should already know this. Ravisloe was sold to a wealthy philanthropist in 2008 who has invested millions in the conservation of the course and facilities. When Ravisloe was private it was never nearly as highly regarded as the other area country clubs. Ravisloe is now public and is regarded as one of the best public courses in the chicagoland area.
3) The better alternatives to Flossmoor and Olympia Fields are far away. Hinsdale and Oak Brook are about a 35 minute drive from flossmoor. Hardly a hop, skip, and jump. About the same distance as downtown chicago is from Flossmoor.
Flossmoor may "hold it's own", but it may end up being an island surrounded by some very bad areas (if the economy continues in that direction).
That's a bit of an exaggeration. We are pretty close to Harvey, Markham, Ford Heights and some rough areas in Chicago Heights. But actually, none of the areas that surround Flossmoor are "really bad". Olympia Fields and Homewood are middle to upper class. The north side of Chicago Heights is solidly middle class and sometimes even affluent.. Then you got Country Club Hills which has its problems with corruption and a failing school district but the crime rate is pretty close the national average. None of the areas that touch Flossmoor are really anything to worry about. They're not "really bad" at all.
You and I must have very very different ideas about what constitutes "a really bad area". You may have more money and resources than me but I can't help but feel sorry for you if you're scared of ANY neighborhood that touches Flossmoor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by concerned2013again
I wish the area well, but as a person that had a girlfriend for many years who (and her family) lived in Riverdale for generations - I had the great displeasure of watching a pretty nice place literally go to hell... I hope that is not the fate of Flossmoor and the surrounding areas.
Riverdale is like Dolton. It was NEVER that desirable of a south suburb.. It was always a gritty area that people lived in for financial reasons moreso than having found the perfect house in just the right neighborhood.. As Allen2323 once said, "Who wants to live next to a factory unless you happen to work there?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by concerned2013again
I am not sure why, but the site banned me as a troll... I am sure they will ban this account as well, oh well. Wasn't meaning any harm. I'm not a resident, but a member of an area club, and was just offering my opinion as to what was happening / going to happen.
Take care.
Maybe they banned me for an "invalid email address". I should think readers would understand why I would prefer to remain anonymous.
No, I'm pretty sure they banned you because of your posts. Sorry to hear that. I'm not a moderator and I don't feel guilty about calling you out..
EDIT: I would've quoted the entire post if I knew it was gonna vanish.. I do think that this guy had some interesting things to say.
Last edited by urza216; 04-24-2013 at 01:42 AM..
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