Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Illinois > Chicago Suburbs
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-25-2015, 02:16 PM
 
62 posts, read 91,527 times
Reputation: 120

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookout Kid View Post
I'm not even sure where to start... It's a brutal, inhuman world view to reduce people to these terms.
I actually think it's more 'inhuman' and cruel to pretend that these objectively measurable differences don't exist because it allows the negative effects to linger.

Quote:
And it ignores a lot of history and economics. Was it an "economic drain on America" to have an agricultural economy based on free slave labor for hundreds of years?
In the long run, it was definitely an economic drain on America to allow English American aristocrats (this is why most blacks have English surnames) to bring Africans to America and use them as biological cotton gins. More importantly, it was morally wrong, but white people didn't have a monopoly on slavery. They were just better at using it on a mass scale than the rest of the world.

The Irish and Chinese were also used as slave labor, but we seldom hear about that.

It should also be noted that while slavery does not exist in the white world anymore, it still exists all over the non-white world - including Africa. In fact, emancipated American blacks who opted to colonize Liberia ended up enslaving the native population and creating a plantation economy not unlike the one they escaped from, and their ancestors controlled that country until they were overthrown in a coup more than a century later.

Quote:
What about all of the inexpensive goods and services produced today by migrant workers from Latin America? Sure, we are on the hook for greater social safety net payments for poorer populations, but why are we not holding businesses accountable who reap the $$$ benefits of this cheap labor? What about the benefits to consumers in the form of lower prices?
Green is the only color that the capitalists see. If the corporations could exploit Europe to the extent that they exploit the non-white world, we'd be talking to Swedes whenever we called customer support and they'd move their factories to France.

Quote:
A modern day person who drops out of school, commits crimes, and requires a lot of social services could be viewed as a "drain on society" if you allow yourself to think that way about you fellow human beings, but you really can't pin this all of blacks and Hispanics.
Agreed. You can, however, say that blacks and hispanics are statistically much more likely to fit this profile than whites or asians.

Quote:
Most welfare recipients are white. Most people on Social Security Disability are white.
38.8% of welfare benefits go to whites, who are a 63.7% majority in America, while 39.8% goes to blacks, who are a 12.2% minority. As you can see, blacks consume a disproportionately high percentage of the welfare pie, making them a greater strain on the system. Whites are actually less likely to be on welfare than any other ethnic group in America - including asians. Whites are actually the only ethnic group that is demographically under-represented in the welfare picture, although I'm sure east asians (Chinese, Koreans, Japanese) would show similar numbers if they were seperated from the rest.

Quote:
And in areas where the percentages are higher, you can't ignore the fact that opportunities are not equal for whites, blacks, and Hispanics.
If blacks and hispanics are continuing to fall behind despite the fact that Affirmative Action places them above more qualified whites and asians, then it might be something other than 'white supremacy' that is keeping them where they are.

Quote:
And if you are willing to reduce human beings to "the worthy" and the "not worthy", what about all of the retired Americans on Social Security and Medicare, which are increasing in number each year as life expectancy increases and Baby Boomers retire? Are you yourself going to reject those payments when the time comes? You know, for the "greater good" and so you won't be a "drain on society" as you age long past the point of being productive? What if economic calamity or an unexpected medical expense wipes out your savings?
The difference is that retirees are collecting from a system they paid into for decades.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-25-2015, 02:31 PM
 
11,975 posts, read 31,786,761 times
Reputation: 4644
Quote:
Originally Posted by OccidentExpress View Post
It should also be noted that while slavery does not exist in the white world anymore, it still exists all over the non-white world - including Africa. In fact, emancipated American blacks who opted to colonize Liberia ended up enslaving the native population and creating a plantation economy not unlike the one they escaped from, and their ancestors controlled that country until they were overthrown in a coup more than a century later.
Seems like you're keeping score. I don't think this is relevant to the conversation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OccidentExpress View Post
38.8% of welfare benefits go to whites, who are a 63.7% majority in America, while 39.8% goes to blacks, who are a 12.2% minority. As you can see, blacks consume a disproportionately high percentage of the welfare pie, making them a greater strain on the system. Whites are actually less likely to be on welfare than any other ethnic group in America - including asians. Whites are actually the only ethnic group that is demographically under-represented in the welfare picture, although I'm sure east asians (Chinese, Koreans, Japanese) would show similar numbers if they were seperated from the rest.
While I'd prefer a citation for your stats, they seem close to ones that I have seen. Once again, not keeping score. Just pointing out that being a "drain on the system", by your definition, applies to a heck of a lot of non-black and non-Hispanic people. You could at least say they are more likely to be taking welfare instead of painting an entire racial group with a single stroke. And even then I would question your motives in doing so, unless you are looking to offer solutions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OccidentExpress View Post
The difference is that retirees are collecting from a system they paid into for decades.
This system has been on cruise control toward horrible financial insolvency for years. Paycheck contributions of today are barely keeping afloat today's recipients, and will not be invested for future use. Therefore, by your definition (i.e. people taking more from the government in the form of benefits than they pay in taxes), the greatest "drain on the system" is elderly Americans on Social Security and Medicare.

I'm not interested in continuing a tit-for-tat on these subjects, but I squirm when I see an entire racial group painted in such a negative manner--even as an upper-middle-class suburban white guy.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-26-2015, 01:03 AM
 
Location: South Chicagoland
4,112 posts, read 9,064,807 times
Reputation: 2084
Quote:
Originally Posted by OccidentExpress View Post
I actually think it's more 'inhuman' and cruel to pretend that these objectively measurable differences don't exist because it allows the negative effects to linger.
Biologists can't figure out if there are 2 races or 200. Our perception of what a person's race is is guided by our American culture.

You are trying to "logically" argue that someone is a cultural and economic drain on society just because they were born black or Hispanic. Do you hear yourself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookout Kid View Post
Once again, not keeping score. Just pointing out that being a "drain on the system", by your definition, applies to a heck of a lot of non-black and non-Hispanic people.
Exactly.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-26-2015, 05:25 PM
 
224 posts, read 310,360 times
Reputation: 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northwest Indiana View Post
I did the same thing. I had read a few articles about Matteson a while ago and out of curiosity, I looked up some of the families on white pages...the families that stated they would stay moved out to Monee (like you stated), Manteno, Peotone, Frankfort, Mokena, Orland, Beecher, and one I saw to Dyer. Am I surprised? Not at all.
A lot of it really has to do with real estate values. Think of it this way, you have a white family that has lived in Matteson for a least a decade or so. Since the article being discussed is from 1995, we'll say they lived there since the 1980's. I'll break things down into a time line of events.

1980's- newly weds, Jim and his wife Sue live happily in their Matteson home.

1990 - the mostly white community that Jim and Sue reside in is quickly turning more diverse with an extremely large number of African Americans moving in. Jim and his wife see no harm and welcome the new residents as they hold their newborn child, Amy. However, other residents see trouble on the horizon.

1993 - The African American population continues to grow at an alarming rate. For sale signs are beginning to sprout up like weeds as other white residents foreshadow their property declining in value as time goes on.

1995 - At this point, Matteson is 50/50 white and black and white flight is in full steam. The remaining residents are doing everything they can to stop the shift in demographics. They write an article about how great Matteson is and how color doesn't matter to them and state they don't plan on leaving. Meanwhile, Lincoln Mall completes its renovation and adds Sears from nearby Park Forest along with many new stores such as Target, Walmart, Sams Club, etc. While school shopping for her daughter Amy, Sue thinks to herself that Matteson could be a diverse mini version of Schaumburg as she stares at the midrise office buildings popping up around the mall.

1998 - White flight continues and crime begins to slowly rise in the town; especially at Lincoln Mall. Jim and Sue start to feel at bit uneasy about the future of their town and the quality of the schools. While driving home on I-57 from work, Jim notices several billboards about new affordable homes further south and west in Beecher, Peotone, Monee, Orland Park, and Frankfort. He suggest to Sue that they move because they know deep down that Matteson is in serious decline and their home is losing value by the day. With high school in the not too distant future, Sue agrees for the sake of her daughter's education and the couple puts their house on the market.

1999 - Jim and Sue are able to sell their old home to a middle class African American family from Chatham. Jim and his family take the amount of money they made and move across I-57 to a brand new subdivision in Manhattan.

2000 - Matteson is now at least 60% African American with declining schools, a dying mall, and higher taxes to offset the loss of commercial stores. Although the town still looks nice and is adding new subdivisions, it's still a shell of its former self.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-26-2015, 10:23 PM
 
119 posts, read 299,913 times
Reputation: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Blish View Post
A lot of it really has to do with real estate values. Think of it this way, you have a white family that has lived in Matteson for a least a decade or so. Since the article being discussed is from 1995, we'll say they lived there since the 1980's. I'll break things down into a time line of events.



2000 - Matteson is now at least 60% African American with declining schools, a dying mall, and higher taxes to offset the loss of commercial stores. Although the town still looks nice and is adding new subdivisions, it's still a shell of its former self.

Either way you shake it. It's symptomatic of an overall declining regional housing market. Healthy markets integrate. Or may have white flight segregation happen in some of the less expensive neighborhoods. Which makes flossmoor way different than previous examples of white flight. In healthy regional marketplaces. It's usually the middle class blacks and other minorities who outwardly migrate to the newly built up further out exurbs for cheaper housing cost. Particularly in regions with healthy underlining population growth and job fundamentals. White flight typically does not occur in the more affluent and established towns such as flossmoor. The US Amateur tournament took place last week at Olympia Fields. In a healthy marketplace. That would have been yet another moment for a nice community to be on display.

Last edited by gregbuck; 08-26-2015 at 11:10 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-01-2015, 10:41 AM
 
Location: The United States
1 posts, read 2,702 times
Reputation: 10
Thank you! I love how you said everything. I'm Black too and I get tired of prejudice lames. I'm really contemplating moving to Flossmoor myself when I turn 23 this upcoming year.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-25-2015, 01:45 PM
 
1 posts, read 2,434 times
Reputation: 10
Thumbs down I see dead hints.

Honestly, this is 2015- If your heart can't take it, then you may as well ask God to take you home. What makes my heart "drop" is the fact that some Flossmoor residents (or ex-residents) think that the more articulate the paragraphs, the more we can't tell blatant racism. The bottom line is that anybody should be able to live anywhere that they can afford. Their are rules and regulations for landscaping enforced regularly here in Flossmoor. As long as that continues, then their should be no problems. PERIOD.....and I didn't need to say it in a riddle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flamadiddle View Post
C'mon urza, you can read between the lines.

Compare and contrast Riverdale, Dolton, Harvey, Hazel Crest, Glenwood, Lansing and Homewood from 1970 until now. I sometimes wonder if the insanely high property tax in Flossmoor is a last ditch effort to stem the tide. It may just be enough to keep Flossmoor from falling like the rest, but then you have the school issue. Do Flossmoor residents pay insanely hight property taxes in addition to private school tuition or just throw in the towel and hit the road? The biggest difference between Flossmoor and the rest is the higher cost housing, which tends to keep an area stable.

Don't get me wrong, I love the South burbs and have lived in Riverdale, Hegewisch, Glenwood, Hazel Crest and Steger, but each time I come back to visit, a little piece of my heart gets ripped out.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-27-2015, 12:41 PM
 
90 posts, read 204,937 times
Reputation: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by flamadiddle View Post
I imagine some of it is "white flight" in addition to people leaving due the crazy high property taxes. IMO, The outlook for the South suburbs is bleak. Flossmoor will not go completely ghetto due to the high cost housing, but the surrounding areas are becoming increasingly sketchy.
On the contrary, some suburbs that weren't too good a few years ago, such as Blue Island, are getting much better. Homewood has always been good. So has Flossmoor.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2015, 03:43 PM
 
90 posts, read 204,937 times
Reputation: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldhousegirl View Post
It's a rainy afternoon here in the Southern U.S. where I now live. I am perusing through property for sale both here and in various other parts of the country where I have lived. I like to keep an eye on things! I am a native Chicagoan, with Flossmoor being the last location that I/we lived in.

I absolutely loved living in Flossmoor!! The awesome sense of community, the great houses, the walkability and on and on. When we sold our Flossmoor home, there were approximately 67 or so houses on the market - that was in 2004. Now there are 100+. Are so many people moving now due to the increase in property values or have the crazy high taxes finally taken their toll??

It piqued my interest because at the height of the whole housing "thing", there were 60 or so homes for sale now there are so many more.

What's going to happen to a great, well run village like Flossmoor??
If the local government keeps doing its job, nothing. Flossmoor has always been a great city. Most people see Homewood and Flossmoor as islands in a sea of undesirability.

Also, if property value increases, that means the demand is going up, which can only mean Flossmoor is getting better! Connect the dots!!!!

Just b/c people are moving out doesn't mean the quality of living is declining.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2015, 03:45 PM
 
90 posts, read 204,937 times
Reputation: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawnik View Post
Honestly, this is 2015- If your heart can't take it, then you may as well ask God to take you home. What makes my heart "drop" is the fact that some Flossmoor residents (or ex-residents) think that the more articulate the paragraphs, the more we can't tell blatant racism. The bottom line is that anybody should be able to live anywhere that they can afford. Their are rules and regulations for landscaping enforced regularly here in Flossmoor. As long as that continues, then their should be no problems. PERIOD.....and I didn't need to say it in a riddle.
People, why, why are you so down on Homewood???? Flossmoor is a great place to live with great people, and, why else would property values be so high if it was a ghetto? Flossmoor will NEVER be a ghetto. I love Homewood but it will become a ghetto before Flossmoor, if ever.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Settings
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2020 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Illinois > Chicago Suburbs
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top