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Old 07-22-2014, 09:01 AM
 
57 posts, read 160,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl1ngsworth View Post
I know, I actually compared it to other S/SW suburbs, you brought the West into the argument. It's small size probably plays to its advantage, and one would hope it would add to demand.



Yes, I agree. There seems to be a few threads on here that are alarmist regarding Flossmoor and Homewood. I think these are mainly residents scared about the decline they see around them (the S/SW region) and worried about how it might affect their otherwise lovely town. You can't be too upset -- they are legitimate concerns. But the good news is Flossmoor, again, is a strong regional performer and looks to have one of the healthiest housing markets around. Zillow is not always 100% accurate, but they do have very advanced forecasting models that usually indicate the general health of any given market. Zillow's models see Flossmoor home values increasing by 2.7% over the 12 months. That is astounding compared to other S/SW suburbs, where Zillow predicts flat to negative growth.



I am not making a point about homeowners paying less... I am making the point that the village/district/county won't be able to collect as much. Tax revenues = down. Towns like Harvey and Ford Heights actually have a collection problem, ie, people not even bothering to pay the bill. They can make their tax rates whatever they want, won't make people pay.

Tax rates will always be exacerbated in towns where prices are falling. A house that sold for $450,000 seven years ago might be paying around 1.5% taxes, or $7k a year. If that house sells now for $275,000, all other factors remaining constant, the tax rate jumps to a whopping 2.5%. It can be notoriously hard in Cook to get your assessment reevaluated, and most people don't even know where to start.

It's all very troubling. There are a lot of houses on the market in S/SW suburbs that many people would love to buy -- but someone who can technically "afford" the beautiful $250k house in Midlothian usually can't afford the $10k/year tax bill it comes with. It forces them to look W/NW/N where tax rates are more in-line with home values. I think if the county and townships got their act together and made it an easy process to have assessment reevaluated, perhaps even creating a system that allows sellers to advertise the new "would-be" tax bill, it would go a long way toward getting some stagnate inventory off the market.

You said this-"My only point was that as home values fall the town's property tax revenue will also have to (eventually) fall." That has not been the case. Tax rates across the entire metro area effectively increased the second the bottom fell out of the housing market. My house is probably undervalued by the county based on their assessment, yet the multipliers change each year and I end up paying more. Flossmoor's tax base is largely derived from private property owners, they (to include the school districts, which is where most of the money goes) are not going to ask for less money because property values have fallen.

I see you edited your post to frame this as a "tax collection" problem. Given the lien system used by the county that makes it impossible for property to change hands, and the tax sale system they use that effectively lets you take ownership of a home by buying delinquent taxes, this is not a likely scenario in Flossmoor.

Last edited by scotty40; 07-22-2014 at 09:24 AM..
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Old 07-22-2014, 10:32 AM
 
28,453 posts, read 85,403,413 times
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It is stupid to talk about towns like Harvey or Ford Heights in a thread about Flossmoor. Totally diffeerent problems not just in "degree" but really nothing in common -- Flossmoor may not be as highly valued as towns western / northern / northwest suburbs but it is "fully functional" with nothing like the long history of corruption and criminal dominance of Harvey or Ford Heights.

In years past there was a slightly differenct kind of mindset for those looking to make a kind of statement about integration and that helped Flossmoor. For a whole lot of reason (everything from the relative effectiveness of efforts to make more choices available to people of different races, to shifts in how low income housing has been handled, to broad trends in education policy) these things are not much of a factor.

Similarly, where once the greater "Southland" was home to signficant numbers of folks that worked in traditonal office settings, shifts in employment / compensation / transportion patterns / home values have concentrated such workers in fairly narrow range of towns.

Honestly the degree to which policies of Illinois elected officials have put the greater Southland at a huge disadvantage could be "undone" in probably less than a decade IF therer were a concerted effort to turn things around with an infusion of solid employment options. One need not be some kind of business-blinded fanatic to see the continued growth of things like warehousing / logistics along the greater I-55 corridor adds to the positive price trends in places from literally Berwyn all the way out beyond Bolingbrook. There are LOTS of potential sites for this along I-57 and south 294 if folks would be a little less short-sighted and a whole lot less willing to make "give aways" to areas that frankly don't need any...

There are certainly those a lot less trusting of "governmental involvement" than I am that would decry any effort to "steer" future economic policies but the simple fact is that even very politically active business leaders make a multitude of decisions with a view toward both the business risks / upsides AND the long term poltical fallout -- the much hated Koch Industries own LOTS of important assets in Illinois. Their relative recent acquisition of Molex for over $7 Billionis a huge investment in a company that MAKES STUFF and they'll need people in the factories even if that means alongside robots and automation, people to move that stuff around, people to sell that stuff, people with the skills to service & maintain that stuff and on and -- PEOPLE!

The stupidity of Illinois polticians to not see things like coordinated investment in vocational / technical education, infrastructure enhancements and yes even tax changes as way not to ensure their own shrinking powerbases continues to support them, but as ways to enhance the wealth / success of all Illinois citizens is the biggest hurdle that towns that really need to remake themselves face. The vast tracts of land that are undeveloped around Peotone in some "anticipation" of a third airport are just one example of insiders looking out for themselves instead responding to reality. There is a whole more NEED to bring much more immeadiate investment in JOBS the areas on the "closer to the city" side Flossmoor and IF that were to happen the overal value / viability of real estate in the whole region would all move in a postive direction.
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Old 07-22-2014, 06:09 PM
 
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Keep in mind that even with the recent increase in property values, close to 40 percent of Flossmoor home owners still have negative equity in their homes. More than twice the national average. So yeah, I would say that things are still way undervalued. To get Flossmoor's housing market back to a normal foreclosure rate. You need to see a pretty aggressive increase in home values from the current price level. To bring the percentage of homeowners underwater back to a sustainable rate.

Last edited by gregbuck; 07-22-2014 at 06:22 PM..
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Old 07-22-2014, 10:31 PM
 
36 posts, read 75,653 times
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Cool the decline of the south suburbs

I think my family would have been a prime candidate for this suburb and the southern suburbs as a whole. My husband and I are both bi-racial, we are currently living in Hyde Park and because of that wish to remain accessible to it to visit family/friends, have a 3 month old son and 450k to spend. We completely wrote off this suburb and the southern suburbs in general because of the poor performing schools, the declining property values, and THE TAXES It is INSANE to spend that kind of money on taxes when you can be on the west side with comparable to better schools than Flossmoor and pay half to a quarter of the taxes. I mean it really is insane. I agree more jobs in this area would put some life into it, and I realize this suburb always had taxes that were higher than normal, but what could these people be doing with all this money? What services are these residents getting that justifies this price point? Lack of Jobs, Political corruption, and pork are the ingredients to the decline of the southern suburbs. Any talk of racism and/or white flight as the reason for this decline are dubious at best.
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Old 07-22-2014, 10:51 PM
 
28,453 posts, read 85,403,413 times
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Default The canary in coal mine...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmollhag View Post
I think my family would have been a prime candidate for this suburb and the southern suburbs as a whole. My husband and I are both bi-racial, we are currently living in Hyde Park and because of that wish to remain accessible to it to visit family/friends, have a 3 month old son and 450k to spend. We completely wrote off this suburb and the southern suburbs in general because of the poor performing schools, the declining property values, and THE TAXES It is INSANE to spend that kind of money on taxes when you can be on the west side with comparable to better schools than Flossmoor and pay half to a quarter of the taxes. I mean it really is insane. I agree more jobs in this area would put some life into it, and I realize this suburb always had taxes that were higher than normal, but what could these people be doing with all this money? What services are these residents getting that justifies this price point? Lack of Jobs, Political corruption, and pork are the ingredients to the decline of the southern suburbs. Any talk of racism and/or white flight as the reason for this decline are dubious at best.
The folks that makes excuses for the political disaster that is spreading across Illinois just don't get it -- corruption and failure to put aside funds for pensions are forcing municipalities & schools to raise taxes to unsustainable levels.

If there are not major changes in the leadership of Illinois politics the problems of even nice towns like Flossmoor will soon be repeated across Chicago and all the other suburbs.

People have short memories. Think back to 2008-2009 , one day GM & Chrysler were not on anybody's minds. Then the access to short term credit crashed and the cash shortage and pension forced them into emergency bankruptcy. Same sort of crisis forced the city of Detroit in bankruptcy.

Credit rating agencies continue to warn that Chicago and the whole state of Illinois are carrying dangerously unsustainable levels of debt.

When idiots send Quinn back to Springfield and things collapse you'll know why. Money that folks are counting on for pensions won't be there, things like "prepaid tuition" could get wiped out. Heck some of the Illinois regional universities like Western could be shuttered / sold off...

Keep ignoring the problem...
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Old 07-22-2014, 11:51 PM
 
119 posts, read 300,080 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmollhag View Post
I think my family would have been a prime candidate for this suburb and the southern suburbs as a whole. My husband and I are both bi-racial, we are currently living in Hyde Park and because of that wish to remain accessible to it to visit family/friends, have a 3 month old son and 450k to spend. We completely wrote off this suburb and the southern suburbs in general because of the poor performing schools, the declining property values, and THE TAXES It is INSANE to spend that kind of money on taxes when you can be on the west side with comparable to better schools than Flossmoor and pay half to a quarter of the taxes. I mean it really is insane. I agree more jobs in this area would put some life into it, and I realize this suburb always had taxes that were higher than normal, but what could these people be doing with all this money? What services are these residents getting that justifies this price point? Lack of Jobs, Political corruption, and pork are the ingredients to the decline of the southern suburbs. Any talk of racism and/or white flight as the reason for this decline are dubious at best.
There needs to be charter and magnet schools within these south suburban school districts. For students who are performing academically and to ensure that these areas continue to meet the needs of families who value education. And yes the property taxes are out of whack on larger homes in particular. Considering the low current property values on larger homes in the area. It's kind of hard to justify those high property taxes on larger homes when the home owner is under water and can't even sell the house for what they paid for it 10 years ago.
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Old 07-23-2014, 03:47 AM
 
36 posts, read 75,653 times
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I hear what your saying, but I am really against charter schools especially in suburbs...

I understand why people want them and why people send their children to them. Heck I grew up in the south shore area and I remember my mom camping out in the school admission lottery line like it was black Friday and the school was best buy. While I do believe my education helped me to achieve in life, I also think charter schools are apart of the reason public schools continue to deteriorate.

It really is a numbers game. See charter schools have the ability to pick and choose which children they want whereas public schools have a responsibility to educate every child. No matter if you break up a population by race, sex, religion, whatever, there will always be the few who are exceptional, most people who are average, and then a few who are stragglers. What a charter school does is take the exceptional and higher mediocre out of the public school and leaves the average kids swimming with underachievers and/or delinquents. While this is bad anywhere, to me it is more tolerable in a city because a lot of times it is difficult to have local say in the schools. A lot of times you have rich, middle class, working class, and non working poor living mere streets away from each other. In this instance the rich afford private, the middle class move to the suburbs, and the working class are left struggling to give their children a future without having the funds to get them out of the impoverished school in the district they live -this is when charter schools make sense. It gives those working class families a voice in how their children are educated.

But in the suburbs, where one of the main reasons the middle class family is moving to them in the first place was good pubic schools and the ability to have a voice for their child in the district, what would be the point of charter/magnet? Why pay significantly more in taxes and move from the convenience and the amenities of the city to still have to worry and bite your nails to see if junior got into that charter and if he didn't be ready to pay that huge chuck of change for private? If you introduced charter/magnet schools to this area, public schools would only get worse because the highest achieving students would be taken out of the already declining district and thus property values would continue to deteriorate.

Politicians in the southern suburbs need to be held accountable, and their books need to be audited so there can be a new understanding of where the money is going, because I can almost guarantee that the money is being mismanaged.
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Old 07-23-2014, 04:11 AM
 
36 posts, read 75,653 times
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See the problem with the pension and tax correlation is if they were actually collecting the taxes and putting the money in an actual pension fund to be taken out when those city/municipalities workers reached retirement age than this really wouldn't be a problem. The issue is they sold these workers a dream many years ago saying that if they took a certain additional percentage out of their checks now then when they were older and couldn't work they would be taken care of. If they actually did this I wouldn't have a problem with it. What they did was took that additional funding, spent it on other things to get themselves elected and maintain power and dropped an IOU in the pension fund, took additional credit lines out on that fund,and now want to increase taxes to sure up the windfall of a debt that is too deep to dig themselves out without some type of bailout or bankruptcy. The issue isn't the program it is the corrupt politicians who are mismanaging funds.

Last edited by bmollhag; 07-23-2014 at 04:21 AM..
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Old 07-23-2014, 06:05 AM
 
1,946 posts, read 7,376,150 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregbuck View Post
There needs to be charter and magnet schools within these south suburban school districts. For students who are performing academically and to ensure that these areas continue to meet the needs of families who value education. And yes the property taxes are out of whack on larger homes in particular. Considering the low current property values on larger homes in the area. It's kind of hard to justify those high property taxes on larger homes when the home owner is under water and can't even sell the house for what they paid for it 10 years ago.
Yes indeed. I know of several households that own homes that would likely sell today for between 700k-850k and their taxes are a staggering 25k-35k. Which brings me to my initial question. What's going to happen to Flossmoor? For the typical buyer, it would be a horrible use of money, with questionable return to buy that type of home and all of the charm in the world won't change that.

I get the reasons behind it, historical Illinois corruption, decreased and/or limited tax base for Flossmoor in particular and other factors. But what I guess may happen is you will see new move in buyers at the lower price points who will likely cycle in and out of the suburb rather than putting down roots. The more expensive houses; who knows how that will go.

The small businesses seem to be doing well especially the restaurants, at least they were the the last time we drove through a year or so ago.
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Old 07-23-2014, 08:06 AM
 
57 posts, read 160,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldhousegirl View Post
Yes indeed. I know of several households that own homes that would likely sell today for between 700k-850k and their taxes are a staggering 25k-35k. Which brings me to my initial question. What's going to happen to Flossmoor? For the typical buyer, it would be a horrible use of money, with questionable return to buy that type of home and all of the charm in the world won't change that.

I get the reasons behind it, historical Illinois corruption, decreased and/or limited tax base for Flossmoor in particular and other factors. But what I guess may happen is you will see new move in buyers at the lower price points who will likely cycle in and out of the suburb rather than putting down roots. The more expensive houses; who knows how that will go.

The small businesses seem to be doing well especially the restaurants, at least they were the the last time we drove through a year or so ago.
I guess you're going to continue to frame statements as questions. You have your answer- the house sells for less because of the tax liability. If the taxes were $6k a year, the price of the home would not be $750-$850K.
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