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Wow, I did not expect your response to be so good! Outstanding. Love the stopwatch idea. So shameful how much instructional time is wasted by teachers blathering about politics. At all grade levels. And it continues right into college too. How did your kids deal with the agendas of their professors in college? Did you have them mentality prepared for the onslaught?
It might be interesting to hear more from usagisan -- I suspect their view about racial homogenity may be similar...
I have no problem with folks that chose to send their kids to pirvate schools, some really are excellent academically and most are far better than public schools in transmitting a sense of "traditon" which is an important thing.
When it comes to "homeschooling" there are a handful of folks that probably are quite capable of leading their own kids but even those with the talent and temperment to build the academic competencies of their own children run a real risk of not just passing down "tradition" but instead something that is much more like "indoctrination" to use as polite a world as possible...
My experience is that for these kids that go college the kinds of schools they choose are more limited. Ultimately I have seen adults that grow up in this sort of situation have a kind of "early midlife crisis" that results in them making radical changes in their life. It is not unlike the path that some who were raised Amish take...
Of course not every homeschooled person will react the same way, just as not every kid from and Asian family will follow in the path their parents prefer but there is evidence that overly rigid parenting styles, that include severely limiting the choices kids make on their own, leads to adults that are less likely to make good choices on their own, ultimately reject choices their parents previously made and eventually have a less fufilling life than children raised in less authoritarian settting.
The data further shows that a rather depressingly large percentage of kids that could be classified as "early high achieving" ("ready for college by 14") go on to have higher than average dissatisfaction with their lives, increased rates of divorce, high risk of alcohol abuse / drug dependency,and lower lifetime earning than folks that earned similar degrees at more standard ages. The critical factors often come down to how much of their achievement they beleive was related to their own personal ambition / talent / creativity vs "performing" / parent pleasing / compliance.
Ultimately each parent certainly needs to assess what is best for their situation but I would urge anyone looking to go down a non-traditional path to deeply consider the research and carefully ponder their own motivations.
The data further shows that a rather depressingly large percentage of kids that could be classified as "early high achieving" ("ready for college by 14") go on to have higher than average dissatisfaction with their lives, increased rates of divorce, high risk of alcohol abuse / drug dependency,and lower lifetime earning than folks that earned similar degrees at more standard ages. The critical factors often come down to how much of their achievement they beleive was related to their own personal ambition / talent / creativity vs "performing" / parent pleasing / compliance.
The data shows this, eh? Which data exactly? I was in a gifted program along with several people who "were ready for college at age 14", and nearly all of them have been quite successful with normal lives. No divorces yet. I can think of one gifted person I know that kind of "peaked early" and then burned out, but she had troubles in her home and ran with a bad crowd.
I am thinking that perhaps any upper middle class neighborhood - even if it is somewhat mixed race - might give her what she is looking for. I have lived in many many neighborhoods, with many types of mixes of races, economies, lifestyles, etc. etc. and it dawned on me that living in an upper middle class even made up of somewhat mixed race - is very desirable (for me).
Ugh, just stop. You are all over the place. Once again, saying "I don't want to live around black people" is racist, because it focuses entirely on the race of surrounding residents instead of the actual QUALITIES that the people have. If you focus entirely on income you may be a snob, but you are not a racist. Most people who live in the nicer suburbs of Chicagoland do so because they want good schools, low crime, and certain amenities. Some may also want to avoid minorities, and we as a society can't seem to shake this horrible way of classifying people.
I live in an upper-middle class neighborhood that is predominantly white, by the way. But if a black resident moved in next door in the $800,000 house that's for sale, I wouldn't think twice about it--and neither would any of my neighbors. If it were chopped up in to apartments and converted to Section 8 (nearly impossible at that price), then the neighbors would probably freak out.
It might be interesting to hear more from usagisan -- I suspect their view about racial homogenity may be similar...
I have no problem with folks that chose to send their kids to pirvate schools, some really are excellent academically and most are far better than public schools in transmitting a sense of "traditon" which is an important thing.
When it comes to "homeschooling" there are a handful of folks that probably are quite capable of leading their own kids but even those with the talent and temperment to build the academic competencies of their own children run a real risk of not just passing down "tradition" but instead something that is much more like "indoctrination" to use as polite a world as possible...
My experience is that for these kids that go college the kinds of schools they choose are more limited. Ultimately I have seen adults that grow up in this sort of situation have a kind of "early midlife crisis" that results in them making radical changes in their life. It is not unlike the path that some who were raised Amish take...
Of course not every homeschooled person will react the same way, just as not every kid from and Asian family will follow in the path their parents prefer but there is evidence that overly rigid parenting styles, that include severely limiting the choices kids make on their own, leads to adults that are less likely to make good choices on their own, ultimately reject choices their parents previously made and eventually have a less fufilling life than children raised in less authoritarian settting.
The data further shows that a rather depressingly large percentage of kids that could be classified as "early high achieving" ("ready for college by 14") go on to have higher than average dissatisfaction with their lives, increased rates of divorce, high risk of alcohol abuse / drug dependency,and lower lifetime earning than folks that earned similar degrees at more standard ages. The critical factors often come down to how much of their achievement they beleive was related to their own personal ambition / talent / creativity vs "performing" / parent pleasing / compliance.
Ultimately each parent certainly needs to assess what is best for their situation but I would urge anyone looking to go down a non-traditional path to deeply consider the research and carefully ponder their own motivations.
While I truly enjoyed usagisan's response, homeschool is not something I am considering for my children. I was simply expecting usagisan to come back with something like, "Durrrr dahhh, blah blah" but it actually turned into a valid argument about probably the biggest problem facing suburban public schools. Say what you want about home versus traditional, but he was right-on about the flaws in the traditional.
Trust me, I would be very hesitant to homeschool my own children or recommend it to a friend. I'm not sure about your "data" but I can vouch that have rarely been impressed with the "end product" of homeschooling. When I was young, my friends and I used to call naive or strange kids we encountered "homeschoolers." Stupid and insensitive name-calling, but you get the point.
My sister homeschools. It worked well for her oldest, but is a nightmare for her middle. Too early to tell for her youngest, but I think his personality will be fine with her approach, even though I think he would do better socially in a traditional school.
Each child is different and succeeds in different environments. I personally like traditional schooling and we have interesting conversations about topics brought up in school that some may categorize as political agendas...recycling, race issues, etc. Also, I find that the school brings in topics I don't have a depth of knowledge of, like cultural holidays around the world. The students at my kids school have pretty diverse backgrounds, which adds to the conversation.
The fact you WERE "in the gifted program" goes a long way to saying WHY..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookout Kid
The data shows this, eh? Which data exactly? I was in a gifted program along with several people who "were ready for college at age 14", and nearly all of them have been quite successful with normal lives. No divorces yet. I can think of one gifted person I know that kind of "peaked early" and then burned out, but she had troubles in her home and ran with a bad crowd.
...the kids you know DID NOT ENCOUNTER the problems more broadly associated with kids "early high achieving" that DO statisically face more challenges. There is a big push among 'cash strapped' schools (or those with "angry tax payers") to force all "square pegs into round holes". The preparation / training that gifted specialists receive is usually easy to cut in those settings.
Teachers that work with "early high achieving" kids try to help those students develop their OWN TALENTS in ways that build self confidence, independence, appreciation for challenging work and other POSITIVES that serve them with life long skills to help overcome the tendency to "flame out"' or face the kinds of doubts later in life that lead to divorce / problems with dependnency. There is good research on the effectiveness of specialized programs and the fact that it worked for you ought to further help you understand why a "homeschooling" environment is less than ideal. There are still a handful of colleges that support these programs. Locally NU has a Center for Talent Development, but they do not do nearly as much outreach as they once did.
I myself know that while I am pretty good with teaching math and science I would not be as effective with language arts / foriegn language or fine arts. My kids went to public schools where they had teachers that specialized in these things and they were excellent in all these areas. Heck my kids are much more talented at art / music than I ever imagined myself being. Sure I love going to museums but my creative talents are mostly limited to things like building a good arguement or assembling a Lego set and my muscpic talents at mostly in assembling an iPod playlist... My son still has friends that he occiasionally will get together with and play live music! That takes a heckuva different mindset than showing up for "violin lessons"!
The relative funding that even national groups for gifted / talent education gets is very low. The relative "peak" may very well have been when people about your age (born in the late 70s?) were in school. Honestly I worry that with cutbacks we again will see a rise in very talented indivuals "flaming out"...
I am on the road today. If I can get to desk I will post the links. There is A LOT of good research on both gifted kids and home schoolers. The stuff about home schooler from sociologists is more trustworthy to me as the education professors have too much "investigator bias" to limit home schooling, but that said the data is not encouraging. I mean think about it, it is one think for separatist sect of Mennites in Iowa and quite another for someone in a "bunker" in an othewise wise suburban area. The farm kids will be exposed to the relatity of where calves come from and corn genetics and responsible land management. The kids in the burbs are relying on "educational publishers" that would make Soviet propagandists blush and make North Korea press releases seem believable...
Last edited by chet everett; 07-25-2014 at 09:13 AM..
Wheaton, Naperville, Glen Ellynn, Warrenville etc. West Suburbs are the best bet. If you dont mind going a little further west the Fox River cities like Batavia, St. Charles, Geneva are great areas.
There is good research on the effectiveness of specialized programs and the fact that it worked for you ought to further help you understand why a "homeschooling" environment is less than ideal.
Oh, I think homeschooling is nuts. Homeschoolers are setting their children up for a life of social rejection and fear of the outside world. In some ways this is the intent... to raise children outside of the influence of the mainstream, and it creates enclaves of strange almost "tribal" ideas, almost to the point of being cult-like. And I find that most parents who home school are quite overconfident in their abilities to educate, and in the abilities of their children.
Small sample size:
Graduates from Stevenson HS:
Nephew 1) Full scholarship at Cathage College; pre-med
Nephew 2) Will enter Purdue Engineering school this fall
Friend 1) Indiana U., doing well, business major, IIRC accounting
Friend 2) SIU, doing well, studying to teach English in Germany.
Graduates from Lake Zurich:
Friend 1) Iowa, journalism, doing well
Friend 2) Bradley, engineering, havent' received report on how first year went.
None were home-schooled or went private. There is nothing wrong with that, if that's what is best for that child. But a combination of good suburban public schools combined with emotionally stable, upper middle class households has mirrored expected outcomes.
A clarification: I need to stipulate that I'm not implying Bartlett HS is crappy. I know it is one of the best, if not the best HS in U-46 and has some of the most favorable demographics of U-46 as well. I also remember reading about Bartlett wanting to separate from U-46. I also know that it is not among the best, the elite high schools. Doesn't mean a smart, motivated student won't succeed. It just means that instead of having 85-95% similar peers, they will have a much more mixed peer group and resources will be allocated to diverse groups instead of being focused primarily in high achievers.
Small sample size:
Graduates from Stevenson HS:
Nephew 1) Full scholarship at Cathage College; pre-med
Nephew 2) Will enter Purdue Engineering school this fall
Friend 1) Indiana U., doing well, business major, IIRC accounting
Friend 2) SIU, doing well, studying to teach English in Germany.
Graduates from Lake Zurich:
Friend 1) Iowa, journalism, doing well
Friend 2) Bradley, engineering, havent' received report on how first year went.
None were home-schooled or went private. There is nothing wrong with that, if that's what is best for that child. But a combination of good suburban public schools combined with emotionally stable, upper middle class households has mirrored expected outcomes.
A clarification: I need to stipulate that I'm not implying Bartlett HS is crappy. I know it is one of the best, if not the best HS in U-46 and has some of the most favorable demographics of U-46 as well. I also remember reading about Bartlett wanting to separate from U-46. I also know that it is not among the best, the elite high schools. Doesn't mean a smart, motivated student won't succeed. It just means that instead of having 85-95% similar peers, they will have a much more mixed peer group and resources will be allocated to diverse groups instead of being focused primarily in high achievers.
I for one believe that post-high school educational achievement is measured by one's own will. It doesn't matter how much the school spends on the latest tech gizmos such as ipads, arts classes, music classes etc. The bottom line, it is derived primarily from the student and possibly the parents. People need to stop blaming schools and start pointing the fingers at themselves if their students aren't achieving.
In a day with Khan academy, Youtube, and countless educational learning tools that can easily be found with Google, I fail to see how kids are still having trouble graduating high school. I've seen some poor, poor parents push their kids through college and succeed, and at the other end, have rich parents expect the school to do everything for them.
From what I've seen,most school districts have a influx of smart indian/south asian kids that actually push up the test results for any school district. Do you mean to tell me these indian kids get a different education than another kid sitting in the same classroom?
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The fact you WERE "in the gifted program" goes a long way to saying WHY..
