Why Can't Chicago Shape Up its Public Schools? (neighborhoods, magnet schools)

[BRU67]

Originally Posted by Irishtom29

Substitute "Jews", "Gypsys", "Slavs" or "retarded" for "poor people" and it sounds like you know who.

Maybe we could limit the population growth of chiselers who don't buy city vehicle stickers, then we'd have more resources and less people who think they're entitled.

Yea, you can't just limit the population of certain groups. We don't live in that kind of society, which is a good thing actually. However, reduced population sizes will come with better education and achievement, and this is where we're failing. Blame parents of certain demographics all you want but unless we as a society step in, round and round we will go. It will never end.

[Humboldt1]

Bru,

You may not see it this way but I will take your point even further. Sometimes, if people don't make the right decisions we may need to make the decisions for them.

As I ride the green line tonight at the central stop and see the animal behavior around me (it is exactly this with thugs hitting on anything female with words that would be fit for the raunchiest rap video) I am surrounded by people who have made and will make poor decisions unless someone steps in (society) to make decisions for them.

[Attrill]

Originally Posted by Humboldt1

Bru,

You may not see it this way but I will take your point even further. Sometimes, if people don't make the right decisions we may need to make the decisions for them.

This really gets to the crux of the issue. How do you determine exactly what those decisions will be? At what point does an individual lose the right to make their own decisions? Do you have a child? Do you think the state should have the right to grab that child from you forever if you yell at it too loudly in a supermarket?

[cubssoxfan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humboldt1
Bru,

You may not see it this way but I will take your point even further. Sometimes, if people don't make the right decisions we may need to make the decisions for them.

This really gets to the crux of the issue. How do you determine exactly what those decisions will be? At what point does an individual lose the right to make their own decisions? Do you have a child? Do you think the state should have the right to grab that child from you forever if you yell at it too loudly in a supermarket?

That is the dilema. If you have surveillance cameras to match videos with the perps you can cut down on this behavior. But many fear this will lead to adverse consequences for behavior they view as minor (spitting on the sidewalk when no one else is near by or walking across the street on red when no traffic is around) Now lets say the train perps get caught. If their parents do not curtail this behavior then it's up to the legal system.

[Humboldt1]

Let's not dance around the real issue here, birth control among the poor, particularly the non-working poor. Some people should just not be having kids period and many should not having as many kids as often or early as many are doing and having the state pick up the tab.

I have no problem with someone having 10 kids by age 18 if they can support these kids without govt support.

Maybe if we stop giving handouts to people having kids they cannot pay for this will cut down on irresponsible behavior.

We cannot mandate widespread sterlization of certain populations for moral reasons. We need to allow people to make the right decisions on their own but just push them in the right direction by creating incentives for them to do the right thing. How we accomplish this is something of the next nobel prize.

[cubssoxfan]

Maybe the government has it all wrong. Perhaps to balance future demographics the government should be giving huge payouts to high achieving, college educated parents to have more children. One can argue they will be more likely to contribute and grow society in the future. So if a qualifying couple goes for child #3 and higher they get a financial incentive to do so.

Maybe support should be tied to school parameters such as attendance and grades. Maybe this would motivate the less involved parents to become more involved in guiding their child to do better and move up the socio-economic ladder. Johnny doesn't have c's and is cutting class, well your welfare checks have stopped. Johnny is now getting A's and has high attendence, you are getting your welfare back and are getting a high grades stipend.

[Humboldt1]

Poor, less educated people tend to have more kids than more educated, affluent people.

Basically, a person with 100 IQ is more likely to have kids than a person with 140 IQ.

Eventually, we will have a population filled with 100 IQ people and fewer and fewer 140+ IQ people.

Think Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron.

I don't know how we reverse this trend other than encouraging people with high IQs to reproduce more than people with lower IQs.

[Cbeck24]

I think chicago schools can shape up. To pin point what answers is almost unreal. The combination of everything creates poor schools. The students need to get excited and be interested to do well. putting money into schools does help on some levels yet its still not the solution. i think its a combined effort of everyone. people within the immediate community and those outside of the community. when people come together its crazy how much we can accomplish. i also thinking that teaching to the test isnt the best idea. it teaches the student how to regurgitate the information. i dont know what the solution is but i know if we all seriously made an effort to improve the schools it could be done.

[Chi-town Native]

Originally Posted by Humboldt1

Poor, less educated people tend to have more kids than more educated, affluent people.

Basically, a person with 100 IQ is more likely to have kids than a person with 140 IQ.

Eventually, we will have a population filled with 100 IQ people and fewer and fewer 140+ IQ people..

I don't know how we reverse this trend other than encouraging people with high IQs to reproduce more than people with lower IQs.

Do you have any idea what an IQ score is? It's all relative, if there are less 140 IQ people that means that people with IQs around 60 are also fewer.

Your assertion is also questionable - largest families I know are in 6 figure households, as the wife doesn't have to work.

you have a lot to learn about life.

[citylove101]

If parents are to blame for the state of the Chicago schools it is the middle-class parents not the poor ones. Judging from my friends and family here, anytime they have two nickels to rub together they send their children to private or Catholic schools. The big diffence I see in Chicago and , say, Boston, Chicago or New York, is that in those cities the middle-class is FAR more invested in the success of the public schools than is the middle class (Black, white and Hispanic) in Chicago. And the pressure of the middle-class is ultimately what forces politicians to improve schools. Note: I'm saying that this middle-class investment is a matter of degree, not of kind, cause there are clearly still lousy schools in Boston, NYC, and DC, and good ones in Chitown.

The middle-class, not the poor, have the power to bring about change and until they get on the case--and it seem they do so relatively less often in Chicago--the schools with continue to suffer. The public's power won't save every school and turn a street corner thug into a Rhodes Scholar, but they can move the mountain a lot farther than they've done already.

It takes work, and diligence and yes, a certain amount of arrogance to think that one can change a school, but if not us, who, and if not now, when?