IL pension reform. Thoughts? (Chicago, Union: insurance, mortgage, unemployment)

[lenniel]

Quinn to sign landmark pension abuse reforms into law - chicagotribune.com

I'm as pure a capitalist as they come in that I believe you deserve every dollar you 'earn', even if you happen to make a lot of money and some people don't believe you should make as much as you make. I also believe that for a large majority of people, the name of the game is to make as much money as you can, whether you're a blue collar union guy digging ditches or a white collar MBA selling software systems for IBM.

I actually don't even have a problem when a loop hole is exploited to make more money, but when that money is coming out of my pocket in the form of higher taxes, that's when I do have a problem with it.

I just think it's kind of exasperating to read how some of these guys getting these incredible public/teachers union pension benefits show such little disregard for what's right and moral and only care about the 'constitutionality' and whether it's 'legal' or not (even though they're exploiting the system).

Anyway, like I said, I'm all for someone making as much money as they can so I'm having a battle internally myself as to whether I should say "good job, you found a way to make more money" or "you're a crook".

[chet everett]

THEY ARE CROOKS!

It is frankly unbelievable that anyone would hesitate for a moment on this -- the BIGGER CROOKS are the the b&*st%#rds in the legislature that have allowed this thievery for years...

[vicnice]

I dont believe in Unions nor in pensions. This is a capaitalist society and those are socialist programs. I do believe in fair treatment, so some aspects of unions are needed, but fleecing taxpayers to continue paying benefits because you didnt make enough is wrong. Go get a better education.

This is exactly why those jobs are being shipped overseas!

[gomexico]

Originally Posted by vicnice

I dont believe in Unions nor in pensions. This is a capaitalist society and those are socialist programs. I do believe in fair treatment, so some aspects of unions are needed, but fleecing taxpayers to continue paying benefits because you didnt make enough is wrong. Go get a better education.

This is exactly why those jobs are being shipped overseas!

And what about capitalist corporate welfare? In favor? Or opposed? Rob the poor and give to the rich? That's what you're supporting? Don't believe in collective bargaining? Not in pensions, social security other benefits.

Happy New Year, Scrooge. You've got yours, and screw the rest.

I don't think you should be suggesting others get a better education.

[Irishtom29]

Unions and pensions are part of the free market, the invisible hand at work making corrections. And in a cpaitalistic society people have the freedom to band together to further their collective economic interests. Sometimes in the form of corporations and sometimes in the form of unions.

As for the OP; the people who abuse these pensions should be horsewhipped.

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by Irishtom29

Unions and pensions are part of the free market, the invisible hand at work making corrections. And in a cpaitalistic society people have the freedom to band together to further their collective economic interests. Sometimes in the form of corporations and sometimes in the form of unions.

As for the OP; the people who abuse these pensions should be horsewhipped.

exactly

[cubssoxfan]

Originally Posted by vicnice

I dont believe in Unions nor in pensions. This is a capaitalist society and those are socialist programs. I do believe in fair treatment, so some aspects of unions are needed, but fleecing taxpayers to continue paying benefits because you didnt make enough is wrong. Go get a better education.

This is exactly why those jobs are being shipped overseas!

If that's how you feel, then you need to return all your socila security earnings to the US Government. And do not ever apply for unemployment insurance. And when you are older and qualify for Medicare and Medicaid, turn those down. Otherwise you are a hypocrite. Unions came to be because of capitalism and was a movement to correct the abuses of unchecked(at the time) abuses by employers. Do you value weekends off? 40 hour work weeks? Limits on child labor and minimum age to work? Do you value safe work environments? Guess what, these came to being in large part due to organized labor. Pensions eveolved because of wage freezes instituted by FDR. They were a way around to recruit/reward good employees.

Irishtom29 Unions and pensions are part of the free market, the invisible hand at work making corrections. And in a cpaitalistic society people have the freedom to band together to further their collective economic interests. Sometimes in the form of corporations and sometimes in the form of unions.

As for the OP; the people who abuse these pensions should be horsewhipped.

The issue is that the pendulum swung from too much power in the hands of employers to too much power in the hands of organized labor. I believe it is swinging back again. Will it end up in the middle or keep swinging back towards the employer? When the private sector offered pensions, increasing wages and better job security most people did not have issues with the pensions organized labor unions negotiated. Now that the private sector has mostly eliminated pensions, wages are stagnant and job security is scarcer people are feeling resentment towards those that are doing better especially since it is coming out of their pockets in the form of higher taxes and reduced services to fund municipal workers and teachers.

The only thing I can think of is to choose carefully who you vote for. I have to admit, I resent the Democratic block in Chicago and parts of Cook Co. that vote D no matter who is running. But understanding human nature, if I was a union employee trying to protect "what's mine" I would probably vote that way too. But I'm not, so the resentment is there.

What I'm trying to figure out is if Madigan & Cullertons efforts to reform IL pensions is genuine(they are worried about keeping a D majority) or if it is lip service and a delay tactic hoping a miracle happens and people stop paying attention.

Had a conversation with my wife essentially saying once the kids are done with school, I'm looking at moving to a lower tax area. Don't know if that is in IL or if I get p***ed enough to look for different job and move out of state. But the closer my monthly property tax bill gets to my mortgage payment, the angrier I get.

[SJaye]

Originally Posted by gomexico

And what about capitalist corporate welfare? In favor? Or opposed? Rob the poor and give to the rich? That's what you're supporting? Don't believe in collective bargaining? Not in pensions, social security other benefits.

Happy New Year, Scrooge. You've got yours, and screw the rest.

I don't think you should be suggesting others get a better education.

Isn't it somewhat naive to assume that someone who opposes pensions/ social security supports corporate welfare? It is ideologically inconsistent, and a true supporter of free markets opposes pensions (provided by Government) and social security, as well as corporate welfare. I know there are a lot of hippocrates out there with inconsistent viewpoints, but I think we all owe it someone to give them a chance to give their opinion on something before making an assumption about it and then calling them names about it.

[SJaye]

Originally Posted by cubssoxfan

If that's how you feel, then you need to return all your socila security earnings to the US Government. And do not ever apply for unemployment insurance. And when you are older and qualify for Medicare and Medicaid, turn those down. Otherwise you are a hypocrite. Unions came to be because of capitalism and was a movement to correct the abuses of unchecked(at the time) abuses by employers. Do you value weekends off? 40 hour work weeks? Limits on child labor and minimum age to work? Do you value safe work environments? Guess what, these came to being in large part due to organized labor. Pensions eveolved because of wage freezes instituted by FDR. They were a way around to recruit/reward good employees.

Pensions are fine as long as they are provided by an employer as an incentive to recruit quality labor. I think it is government pension that have gotten out of hand. Unions are fine too, actually most likely necessary to check the greed of those higher up in a corporation. However, it is when they represent government employees, and/or use government to attain more money and power at the expense of the taxpayer that it get harder to support them.

However, the argument that someone should return their Social Security money to the government or else be a hypocrite is utter &*#$ because that does not change the fact that this person had their money drawn into the system against their wishes without even being consulted. It would be one thing to give them all of that money (that they earned) back and say, "don't expect any help from Government when you need it", but quite another to tell them that their only other alternative to being mad at the system is to just accept that they are being fleeced for 6.2% of their paycheck and not let out a peep- sounds a lot like speech/tought control to me.

[vicnice]

Originally Posted by gomexico

And what about capitalist corporate welfare? In favor? Or opposed? Rob the poor and give to the rich? That's what you're supporting? Don't believe in collective bargaining? Not in pensions, social security other benefits.

Happy New Year, Scrooge. You've got yours, and screw the rest.

I don't think you should be suggesting others get a better education.

Wow, so you asked me a question and then answered it yourself, I am confused and you are all over the place. What question is it that you want me to answer?