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Come on, didn't you pay attention in school? Remember the whole "the Union and Pacific railroad race to join the nation"? The railroad companies themselve DID "build that". Gold spike in the middle and all... They were given federal land rights to a stipulation that they had a timelimit on laying down the track, but there own money was used to pay for the tracks.
So now you are going to tell me you want to stop spending public funds on highways and make that a completely private system?
Quote:
Originally Posted by chet everett
Highways are largely by users through motor fuel taxes and similar excise taxes. In Illinois we also the Spaniards charging taxes for the skyway and the ISTHA running the cash boxes
for expressways that link O'Hare to the rest of the region. All-in-all nobody gets a free ride...
There are so many obvious problems with trying to ignore the difference between either highways vs railway OR Japan's construction phase bullet trains as a model for US rail improvements that it would be easier to pretend that the internet would be better if the government built owned all the "infrastructure". There is no such need. And make no mistake there really is a HUGE amount of very important physical infrastructure -- billions of optical fibers and copper wires to hook everything together, switched and routers to send packets where they belong, servers that host data. The government laid out standard but little else. How about another model -- radio frequency for everything from listening to a ball game to making smart phones possible. Lots of physical infrastructure: huge transmission towers, satellite uplink sites, orbiting satelilites, the WiFi access points you may have in your home. There are "spectrum auctions" that help pay for the regulatory agencies, but again the government does not "own" anything. Heck let's look at airports. The Federal government does not own 'em. Places like O'Hare are owned by Chicag. Ditto for DuPage Co having their airport. But there are also private airports like those at Clow or Palwaukee. The "regulatory" aspects of the ATS / FAA are paid for by fees. Show a sane / realistic way to restruct Amtrak like any of these things and would go a long for leaving behind fantasy and moving closer to something that might make sense...
I'm not arguing that the government necessarily has to own and finance all parts of passenger railroads. Heck, if a private company wants to come in and invest in passenger rail (as some are currently looking at doing in the US right now), let them do it. However, I think it's a big double standard to complain incessantly about how expensive it is to finance passenger rail when it is such a minute expense relative to other forms of transit.
I've already posted about how user fees make up a declining share of revenue for highway maintenance and construction. In any case we pay the taxes that make the highways possible. We should be looking at getting the most out of tax dollar. Just because we are currently more politically willing to pay for a certain form of transportation does not mean it is the most efficient or the best use of our tax dollars. As I have been arguing, I think we have had a love affair in the 20th century with cars that prevented us from making rational decisions on this issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cubssoxfan
Look, I'm a huge fan of trains. BUT with a huge national debt that is a factor in dragging down economic improvement and has a very realistic chance of making us a collapsed beggar nation like Greece-we CANNOT afford it right now. In areas where the demand will ensure full trains operating at a profit, go for it. In other areas where that is not ensured-wait.
Don't know about you, but I'm not willing to spend my future social security or medicare on this.
We aren't going to pay off debt by letting our infrastructure crumble around us. We have to have a working economy and so we are going to be spending money on some form of transit no matter what. For example, here is what the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) has to say about our road infrastructure:
Quote:
Originally Posted by American Society of Civil Engineers
Americans spend 4.2 billion hours a year stuck in traffic at a cost of $78.2 billion a year--$710 per motorist. Roadway conditions are a significant factor in about one-third of traffic fatalities. Poor road conditions cost U.S. motorists $67 billion a year in repairs and operating costs--$333 per motorist; 33% of America's major roads are in poor or mediocre condition and 36% of the nation's major urban highways are congested. 1 The current spending level of $70.3 billion for highway capital improvements 2 is well below the estimated $186 billion needed annually to substantially improve the nation's highways.
That is just the highlight of the article, you can read the whole text by clicking on the link. As you can see, no form of transit system comes without a significant cost. There are going to be major investments needed transit infrastructure over the coming years so we would do well to try to make those investments in the most sustainable and efficient transit system possible. Here is what ASCE had to say about passenger rail transit, I think it is worth reading:
Quote:
Originally Posted by American Society of Civil Engineers
While the investments set forth by the PRWG are significant, the benefits would be significant as well. The PRWG estimated a net fuel savings of nearly $4 billion per year by diverting passengers to rail if the proposed vision was adopted. 5 In addition, the investments would reduce the need for even greater capacity investments in other modes.
Intercity passenger rail faces particular concerns not faced by other modes of transportation, such as the lack of a dedicated revenue source. Amtrak owns and/or operates 656 miles of track that are maintained and upgraded using funds from its general operating budget, impacting its ability to fund other projects. The annual congressional appropriations process has provided minimal funding in recent years, leading to a major backlog of deferred track maintenance on the track that Amtrak owns and operates, more than half of which is shared with commuter and freight railroads. For the remainder of its 21,095-mile network, Amtrak relies on freight rail lines that make maintenance and upgrade decisions on the basis of their own business models and shareholders' interests while preserving Amtrak’s statutory rights for access. Freight and passenger rail interests are becoming more aligned as both require increases in rail network capacity, but successful alignment of interests will require both a public and private investment. 5
Resilience
Because of its efficiency and reduced energy consumption, rail is an important component of the nation’s transportation network, supporting the economy through both commerce and tourism. But due to a lack of adequate investment, limited redundancy, intermodal constraints, and energy system interdependencies, the rail system is not resilient. Current rail security strategies are risk-based as determined by corridor assessments, corporate security reviews, intelligence analyses, and objectively measured risk metrics. To improve resilience, future investments must address life-cycle maintenance, rapid recovery, multihazard threats and vulnerabilities, and technological innovations.
Conclusion
Rail is increasingly seen as a way to alleviate growing freight and passenger congestion experienced by other modes of transportation. In addition, rail is a fuel efficient alternative for moving freight long distances.
Anticipated growth over the coming decades, as well as demographic shifts, will tax a rail system that is already reaching capacity in some critical bottlenecks. A substantial investment in rail infrastructure will maximize efficiencies and ultimately reap broad benefits for passengers, shippers, and the general public.
Again, you can read the whole article by clicking on the link. The overall point I am making is that we aren't going to get out of our current financial situation by failing to invest in our future and our transit system is a key part of that. If we keep biasing all our funding decisions in favor of a car-centric system, we are not going to end up with a system that makes the best use of our tax payer money.
Location: Schaumburg, please don't hate me for it.
955 posts, read 1,832,102 times
Reputation: 1235
"The build it and they will come" thing is what dooms potential HSR funding in this new era of finite public spending. When transportation money becomes available no one has to question how many "will come" for the roads and airports. They are already there by the hundreds of millions.
Significant federal monies are not going to flow into projects that benefit so few. These projects will have to stay on life support via state government resources for the near-term future.
So now you are going to tell me you want to stop spending public funds on highways and make that a completely private system?
I'm not arguing that the government necessarily has to own and finance all parts of passenger railroads. Heck, if a private company wants to come in and invest in passenger rail (as some are currently looking at doing in the US right now), let them do it. However, I think it's a big double standard to complain incessantly about how expensive it is to finance passenger rail when it is such a minute expense relative to other forms of transit.
I've already posted about how user fees make up a declining share of revenue for highway maintenance and construction. In any case we pay the taxes that make the highways possible. We should be looking at getting the most out of tax dollar. Just because we are currently more politically willing to pay for a certain form of transportation does not mean it is the most efficient or the best use of our tax dollars. As I have been arguing, I think we have had a love affair in the 20th century with cars that prevented us from making rational decisions on this issue.
We aren't going to pay off debt by letting our infrastructure crumble around us. We have to have a working economy and so we are going to be spending money on some form of transit no matter what. For example, here is what the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) has to say about our road infrastructure:
That is just the highlight of the article, you can read the whole text by clicking on the link. As you can see, no form of transit system comes without a significant cost. There are going to be major investments needed transit infrastructure over the coming years so we would do well to try to make those investments in the most sustainable and efficient transit system possible. Here is what ASCE had to say about passenger rail transit, I think it is worth reading:
Again, you can read the whole article by clicking on the link. The overall point I am making is that we aren't going to get out of our current financial situation by failing to invest in our future and our transit system is a key part of that. If we keep biasing all our funding decisions in favor of a car-centric system, we are not going to end up with a system that makes the best use of our tax payer money.
I have read the report. I did NOT say spending on infrastructure is bad. I did not say spending on train transit is bad. I did say spending $$ on HSR in areas with no proof that the demand will provide a good ROI is bad. Especially because we have existing train lines, roads, airports, canals harbors and bridges that simply need replacing we cannot afford to spend large $$ unless we get the best ROI!! Oh, and I think the federal gasoline tax for funding transportation needs to go up. It hasn't increased since 1987 and we pay, by far, the lowest $ for gas of G-8 nations. Less than Canada, less than England, less than Germany, etc. etc.
"The build it and they will come" thing is what dooms potential HSR funding in this new era of finite public spending. When transportation money becomes available no one has to question how many "will come" for the roads and airports. They are already there by the hundreds of millions.
Significant federal monies are not going to flow into projects that benefit so few. These projects will have to stay on life support via state government resources for the near-term future.
I think this is the reason Ohio Gov. Kasich said no thank you to $400 million of federal funds for HSR. However, I would not limit state government resources to the near-term future.
We should just copy Korea which is what china did.
They're entire subway system is excellent. The Seoul subway extends out to most nearby suburbs and even other cities.
In terms of costs I don't think it's profitable but it increases train commuting and makes transportation a breeze. New Subway stations become shopping hubs and revitalize areas.
High speed train to major cities was awesome as well
We should just copy Korea which is what china did.
They're entire subway system is excellent. The Seoul subway extends out to most nearby suburbs and even other cities.
In terms of costs I don't think it's profitable but it increases train commuting and makes transportation a breeze. New Subway stations become shopping hubs and revitalize areas.
High speed train to major cities was awesome as well
Land area of South Korea = 38,620 sq miles (100,000 km²)
Land area of Pennsylvania = 46,060 sq miles (119,300 km²)
Despite your stats here, you can't argue the fact that Southeastern Pennsylvania has some of the best rail connectivity in the entire USA. It is home to the "Keystone Services" corridor which connects Harrisburg to NYC via Philadelphia. A very large portion of this train runs at 110 MPH. The train gets you from Harrisburg through Amish country and on into Philadelphia in a matter of 1 hour & 35 minutes. A Harrisburg to NYC run is done in as short as 3 hours & 4 minutes. This is incredible & was only made possible after the electrification of this line a few years ago. Now all Pennsylvania needs to do is upgrade the Pennsylvanian tracks connecting Harrisburg west to Pittsburgh. This portion of the run is atrociously slow & takes about 5 hours & 29 minutes and only runs once per day. Keystone Services from Harrisburg to Philly & Harrisburg to NYC runs several times to day and is almost like a commuter service in its frequency & speed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chet everett
Land area of South Korea = 38,620 sq miles (100,000 km²)
Land area of Pennsylvania = 46,060 sq miles (119,300 km²)
Despite your stats here, you can't argue the fact that Southeastern Pennsylvania has some of the best rail connectivity in the entire USA. It is home to the "Keystone Services" corridor which connects Harrisburg to NYC via Philadelphia. A very large portion of this train runs at 110 MPH. The train gets you from Harrisburg through Amish country and on into Philadelphia in a matter of 1 hour & 35 minutes. A Harrisburg to NYC run is done in as short as 3 hours & 4 minutes. This is incredible & was only made possible after the electrification of this line a few years ago. Now all Pennsylvania needs to do is upgrade the Pennsylvanian tracks connecting Harrisburg west to Pittsburgh. This portion of the run is atrociously slow & takes about 5 hours & 29 minutes and only runs once per day. Keystone Services from Harrisburg to Philly & Harrisburg to NYC runs several times to day and is almost like a commuter service in its frequency & speed.
125mph by 2025...and restored and enhanced stations and connecting service...its an Express service of 3 commuter lines listed below...everything will be shorten by 30-50 mins by 2025....and more connections added below...
SEPTA Service
Parkersburg / Thorndale Line : Ridership : 20,400 (2012) > Projected 2020 Ridership : 45,700
*Pakersburg - Amtrak
*Coatesville - Amtrak
Thorndale
*Downingtown - Amtrak
Whitford
*Exton - Amtrak
Malvern
*Paoli Amtrak & - Future : Green line Light Rail
Daylesford
Berwyn
Devon
Strafford
Wayne
St. Davids
Radnor
Villanova
Rosemont
Bryn Mawr
Haverford
*Ardmore - Amtrak
Wynnewood
Narberth
Merion
*Overbrook - Connections to Trolley Route 10
*West Philadelphia - Connections to Route 10 Trolley & Future Northeast Trolley and Amtrak
*30th Street Station - Connections to Amtrak , Trolleys , Subway , Regional Rail and NJ Transit
*Suburban Station - Connections to Trolleys , Subway , Regional Rail
*[i]Market East Station - Connections to , Subway , PATCO Speedline , SEPTA Regional Rail & *Future : Waterfront Light Rail , Next Gen High Speed Rail
Tempe University
*Trenton - Connections to Amtrak , SEPTA Regional Rail , RiverLINE Light Rail , *Future : West Trenton Light Rail
Hamilton
*Princeton JCT - Connections to Amtrak , *Future : Princeton Streetcar or Busway
Jersey Ave (Southbound only)
*New Brunswick - Connections to Amtrak , *Future : New Brunswick Light Rail & Route 27 Busway
Edison
Metuchen
*Metropark , Connections to Amtrak , & *Future : NJ 27 Busway
Rahway
Linden
*Midtown Elizabeth , *Future : PATH Rapid Transit , Union County Light Rail , Route 27 Busway
North Elizabeth
*Newark Airport - Connections to Amtrak & Newark Airtrain ,* Future : PATH Rapid Transit , Newark Streetcars and Union County Light Rail
*Newark Penn station - Connections to Newark Light Rail , PATH Rapid Transit , Amtrak and Bus Rapid Transit , *Future : Essex and Union County Light Rail & Newark Streetcars
*Secaucus JCT - Connections to Diesel NJT Regional Rail , *Future : Jersey City Light Rail
*New York Penn - Connections to IND & IRT Subway lines , Long Island railroad Amtrak, *Future : Metro North Regional Rail
I've been trying this metra thingy since I came back.....WTF Chicago.
You need to look at the costs, especially when constucting in today's environment. Metra is on surface tracks because it shares many freight rail lines. Even 50 years ago this was far less $$ than building a subway.
So when you find the magic fairy wand to sprinkle funding into the coffers of Metra, CTA and RTA, new lines will have to really draw large ridership. Otherwise, the more economical Bus Rapid Transit will be the current substitute.
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Wow, just wow...
