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Old 12-19-2007, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Around Chicago
863 posts, read 2,785,120 times
Reputation: 322

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
What seems to be getting you bent out of shape is not knowing or understanding the difference between a generalization and an absolutism. That became clear when you treated Lookout Kid's obviously generalized, carefully qualified statements as absolutes. A generalization is, pardon the tautology, a statement that generally applies to a group or a set but does not necessarily apply uniformly or absolutely. A generalization leaves room for individual exceptions. An absolutism does not. Someone who claims "the South Side is a hellhole warzone" without any qualification whatsoever is making an absolute statement and, of course, would be wrong. But even someone who grew up in a safe and stable South side neighborhood -- in fact, especially someone who grew up in such a neighborhood -- should be able to grasp the fact that most of the South side is NOT safe or stable, and therefore the South side can GENERALLY -- NOT ABSOLUTELY -- be said to be unsafe, to put it diplomatically. At the very least, it should be self-evident that the GENERAL claims -- NOT ABSOLUTE claims -- about the North side being safer than the South side are true.

The reason why generalizations are useful is because it would become tedious and conversations would get bogged down in minutia if we had to lay out all the specific exceptions to an otherwise absolute claim; in other words, to avoid the necessity of conversational diversions such as this one.
Again, I get that. Condescending explanations were not necessary. See one of my previous posts, when I stated that my rant was a general one, not directed solely at Lookout Kid.

Usually (and I am generalizing here) on this forum, when people refer to the South and West sides, absolutes are used (e.g. "stay away from the South side, it's a warzone" or "I don't go near the West side, it's a complete hellhole"). Lookout Kid did not use absolutes. I chose to take my frustrations out on his post because at the time, I was annoyed.

Negative generalizations are only "useful" when the ones using them are not negatively generalized.

 
Old 12-19-2007, 09:30 PM
 
226 posts, read 1,169,107 times
Reputation: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avengerfire View Post
You are right about most things. However,there is no way crime is equal even if you are including the West Side with the North Side, which you should not do.
Prob is, if you do not include the west side that is NW, you only get half of the north side....the only way is to draw a line across the city from Madison...everything south is south, north is north.....Lawndale, Henry Horner homes, Humboldt Park, Austin(Austin is as bad as inglewood on the south side, and bigger), Uptown, Rogers Park, Albany Park with all the central american gangs.........At this point, the south side is so re-gentrified that you can say they are roughly equal in crime. In 10-15 years, prob most of the south side will be regentrified, especially if/when they redevelop brownfields
such as the old US steel lakefront.....
 
Old 12-19-2007, 09:36 PM
 
11,975 posts, read 31,792,528 times
Reputation: 4645
Quote:
Originally Posted by socrates1234 View Post
Prob is, if you do not include the west side that is NW, you only get half of the north side....the only way is to draw a line across the city from Madison...everything south is south, north is north.....Lawndale, Henry Horner homes, Humboldt Park, Austin(Austin is as bad as inglewood on the south side, and bigger), Uptown, Rogers Park, Albany Park with all the central american gangs.........At this point, the south side is so re-gentrified that you can say they are roughly equal in crime. In 10-15 years, prob most of the south side will be regentrified, especially if/when they redevelop brownfields
such as the old US steel lakefront.....
NO ONE uses that definition of the North Side. Of course the West Side is going to include neighborhoods to the north and to the south of Madison Street, and Humboldt Park is most certainly the West Side, as is Lawndale, Austin, Garfield Park, etc.

I do think the South Side will continue to improve, but unfortunately the improvement will probably entail the displacement of many of the current residents into far-scattered neighborhoods. Chicago will eventually become a town where the innermost parts of the city are reserved for those with money, and the poor will be pushed further and further out from the city center. While this will probably be painful for many, it makes sense for areas close to the CBD to have more expensive real estate like they do in Europe. Look to Venice and Paris to see Chicago's future--where the older urban core is almost exclusively a playground for the rich and there are several suburbs that are ghettos for the poor.

Last edited by Lookout Kid; 12-19-2007 at 09:44 PM..
 
Old 12-19-2007, 09:38 PM
 
11,975 posts, read 31,792,528 times
Reputation: 4645
Quote:
Originally Posted by skye1974 View Post
Again, I get that. Condescending explanations were not necessary. See one of my previous posts, when I stated that my rant was a general one, not directed solely at Lookout Kid.

Usually (and I am generalizing here) on this forum, when people refer to the South and West sides, absolutes are used (e.g. "stay away from the South side, it's a warzone" or "I don't go near the West side, it's a complete hellhole"). Lookout Kid did not use absolutes. I chose to take my frustrations out on his post because at the time, I was annoyed.

Negative generalizations are only "useful" when the ones using them are not negatively generalized.
I understand. It's like saying everyone from the Midwest is a hick, or that all New Yorkers are fashionable and direct.
 
Old 12-19-2007, 10:05 PM
 
226 posts, read 1,169,107 times
Reputation: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookout Kid View Post
Post the crime data. "Socrates" and I are in general disagreement about what constitutes a "high crime" neighborhood. Albany Park, Portage Park, Jefferson Park, and Old Irving all have gangs, and crime is higher than in most of the middle-class suburbs that most Americans are accustomed to. And Uptown and Rogers Park have areas that are really quite nasty. But, when you compare them to some of the war zones on the South and West sides, the numbers aren't even close. Sure, you can easily find crime on the North Side--and it's not as safe as many suburubs. Look at the stats. Even Uptown, which has about four to six murders a year, is NOTHING compared to a place like Austin or Englewood. And Portage Park and the rest of the far Northwest side are really quite safe, in spite of the smattering of gangs and low-income Latino residents.

Don't even talk to me about Humboldt Park or Lawndale... Everyone considers these areas the West Side! I agree, these areas are flat out hood. Humboldt Park is gentrifying near the Wicker Park/Bucktown border, but most of it is dangerous gangland.
There is a lot more to crime than rapes and murders.....assaults and such are endemic as well in Chicago, all over...the trick to this, rather than pulling out stats, is to remember than the city is always changing......in the 20's - 50's, most of the north side was very working class..Lincoln Park was a gritty German neighborhood with most of the residents living in 2-flats/apartments...Wicker Park was a skid row.....the working-class bungalow belt was indistinguishable from north to south.....the south side actually had the classiest neighborhoods, such as Kenwood/Hyde Park, Beverly/Morgan Park, South Shore, Pill Hill, the old south prairie district.........and then, at a certain point, all the whites moved out, or most, and the north side areas became re-discovered by early yuppies/hippies in the early 70's, and populated/changed the neighborhoods we catagorize as Wrigleyville. ....now, you have redeveloped brownstones south to Comisky....Million-dollar homes built in the shadows of RJD's Bridgeport, the South Loop is the most happening near DT neighborhood, ever extending southward, and so on. At this point North, South, and West are becoming poor general indicators of wealth, safety, activity, culture, etc; that is, if they ever were.

BTW, I do notice that folks tend to exclude areas that are crime-ridden from their definition of sides......Humboldt park is just west of Wicker Park..so because Wicker Park is white, they still loop that with the north side? If HP gentrifies, I would imagine it would magically appear as north side in common parlance.............The west side is a nebulous concept, but surely far more of it should and usually is considered north side.

Last edited by socrates1234; 12-19-2007 at 10:27 PM..
 
Old 12-19-2007, 10:39 PM
 
226 posts, read 1,169,107 times
Reputation: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookout Kid View Post
NO ONE uses that definition of the North Side. Of course the West Side is going to include neighborhoods to the north and to the south of Madison Street, and Humboldt Park is most certainly the West Side, as is Lawndale, Austin, Garfield Park, etc.

I do think the South Side will continue to improve, but unfortunately the improvement will probably entail the displacement of many of the current residents into far-scattered neighborhoods. Chicago will eventually become a town where the innermost parts of the city are reserved for those with money, and the poor will be pushed further and further out from the city center. While this will probably be painful for many, it makes sense for areas close to the CBD to have more expensive real estate like they do in Europe. Look to Venice and Paris to see Chicago's future--where the older urban core is almost exclusively a playground for the rich and there are several suburbs that are ghettos for the poor.
Also, if the North Side is defined that narrowly that you exclude those areas, and you include the same contiguous areas on the "south side" as south, whereas you call it west side up north, than the south side would be 2.5 times the area as the north. Remove what IS considered gentrified and/or white ethnic, and you are talking about at best 1/5 of the city of Chicago. That leaves 4/5's of the city that would be considered "bad" in a gentrified white mindset of Chicago
 
Old 12-20-2007, 02:26 AM
 
Location: Chicago
15,586 posts, read 27,612,634 times
Reputation: 1761
Quote:
Originally Posted by socrates1234 View Post
Prob is, if you do not include the west side that is NW, you only get half of the north side....the only way is to draw a line across the city from Madison...everything south is south, north is north.....Lawndale, Henry Horner homes, Humboldt Park, Austin(Austin is as bad as inglewood on the south side, and bigger), Uptown, Rogers Park, Albany Park with all the central american gangs.........At this point, the south side is so re-gentrified that you can say they are roughly equal in crime. In 10-15 years, prob most of the south side will be regentrified, especially if/when they redevelop brownfields
such as the old US steel lakefront.....
Again,Lawndale is not on the North Side (north of Madison)AT ALL and Austin is barely north of Madison.

As far as I know, Albany Park always had Mexican gangs. Some Puerto Ricans. North America includes Mexico and Puerto Rico in its area, right or wrong?
 
Old 12-20-2007, 02:28 AM
 
Location: Chicago
15,586 posts, read 27,612,634 times
Reputation: 1761
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookout Kid View Post
NO ONE uses that definition of the North Side. Of course the West Side is going to include neighborhoods to the north and to the south of Madison Street, and Humboldt Park is most certainly the West Side, as is Lawndale, Austin, Garfield Park, etc.

I do think the South Side will continue to improve, but unfortunately the improvement will probably entail the displacement of many of the current residents into far-scattered neighborhoods. Chicago will eventually become a town where the innermost parts of the city are reserved for those with money, and the poor will be pushed further and further out from the city center. While this will probably be painful for many, it makes sense for areas close to the CBD to have more expensive real estate like they do in Europe. Look to Venice and Paris to see Chicago's future--where the older urban core is almost exclusively a playground for the rich and there are several suburbs that are ghettos for the poor.
Better yet, look to Detroit in some ways...
 
Old 12-20-2007, 02:39 AM
 
Location: Chicago
15,586 posts, read 27,612,634 times
Reputation: 1761
Basically anything north of North avenue is the North Side or Northwest Side. Parts of some areas south of North can be considered the West Side or the North Side. I will tell you this, if you go anywhere south of North avenue and west of Halsted you find many,many,many,White Sox fans going back many generations...That should give you a clue about how these areas are not part of the "North Side"...Its the West Side. The West Side is generally North Ave to Cermak (or in some places Ogden) all the way to the city limits. Sorry. The only part north of Madison completely and that is in no dispute as being on the North Side is east of the River and north of the River.
 
Old 12-20-2007, 03:17 AM
 
Location: Chicago
15,586 posts, read 27,612,634 times
Reputation: 1761
Quote:
Originally Posted by skye1974 View Post
I get that and I agree with everything except for the "warzone" and "hellhole" parts.

Maybe I just need to stay away from this thread and others like it. I grew up on the South side in what was, and still is, a good neighborhood and it is a little jarring to see these opinions and generalizations on these parts of the city. Especially when it seems that some people have never even been to these places.
I have been to the South and West Sides plenty of times. I was born in Chicago too. I will never say all of the South or West Sides are horrible. But most of both are. Even when I am working, driving around in the daytime, it can be pretty scary. Anyone that says the North Side is as dangerous or more dangerous as the South Side is delusional. (As some people have claimed here) I am glad you live in a good area and I hope your area expands. I wish you luck and success . May your area prosper.
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