NATO summit protests (Chicago, Industry, Time: crimes, cost, airplane)

[8loody]

Originally Posted by j_cat

...at standing around watching a peaceful protest, and keeping it needlessly "contained". I suppose we can at least give them kudos for not beating anybody?

I can't believe how this seemingly progressive city has uncritically bought into the official hysteria about "dangerous protesters".

Peaceful? You are so naive.

[Chicago60614]

Originally Posted by 55degrees
I know the protesters are causing a lot of inconvenience for everyone, but I'm surprised at how right-leaning this discussion has been. I know we're not from San Fransisco, but we're not supposed to be like Mobile, Alabama.

What does this have to do with left or right? There was a situation, people blatantly watched it on TV and it's pretty obvious what was happening.

I'm a gay liberal who grew up in a college town. I hate the right for the most part. Given this situation though, I'm 100% with the police. This is a no-brainer. I was quite shocked at how well the police handled this weekend, and have a lot more respect for them than I had last Thursday, mostly due to the fact I was downtown Friday through Monday and interacted and saw things first hand.

[Chi-town Native]

Originally Posted by tribecavsbrowns

We've never claimed to be "progressive" in the sense that you want us to be -- to let our city be a stage for slackers and loons to spout their "wisdom."

how many people here are actually OK with spending $1 million a week on wars overseas?

the fact is Americans are an apathetic bunch. we barely exercise the right to vote that other people are still fighting and dying for, the turnout in most non-presidential elections is in the 30% range, which is pathetic.

people protesting is great - I don't judge the protesters by a few provocateurs any more than I judge the entire police force by the ones who are corrupt or thugs.

I do agree the cops did a good job, but there was a cost all right, dozens were shot in the neighborhoods last weekend, and I think 6 or 7 died.

how about we get back to business:

The city

[ERS-One]

Originally Posted by deliz

How does not wanting dissent in my home elude to you that Im conservative .. Just wondering?

What's wrong with dissent?

Originally Posted by 8loody

Peaceful? You are so naive.

The majority of protesters were indeed peaceful

Originally Posted by tribecavsbrowns

We've never claimed to be "progressive" in the sense that you want us to be -- to let our city be a stage for slackers and loons to spout their "wisdom."

And what's wrong with MY hometown being a place for all voices to be heard, no matter how crazy sounding?

Originally Posted by j_cat

Disclaimer that shouldn't be necessary but maybe is: I'm not a protester. I just live here, and I've been disturbed by people's overreaction to the whole thing, so I went down to see it all for myself first-hand every single day. The protest crowd was the usual mix of thoughtful people and total nuts, and the cops... well, they were nice enough for the most part, but the human walls blocking off totally random streets were rather creepy and seemed pretty unnecessary. And did you see that huge barricade of snow trucks dividing Grant Park?

I think there has been some confusion about the real threat of terrorism at a NATO summit, and people conflating that with hippies who couldn't be less threatening if they tried! I blame cynical media sources for some of that confusion. (I'm not someone who thinks the media is necessarily right-biased or left-biased, I just think that sometimes they do their job poorly and sometimes they are propagandists for the "official" story. The worst example I've seen in my life was of course after 9/11, when every TV news outlet had "America Strikes Back" flashing across its screen.)

I too was not a protester, and never was really concerned about "terrorism". I was more concerned about of repeat of Chicago '68 or Seattle '99. Was the show of manpower by the PD a little heavy? Perhaps, but in the end it seems like it was a win-win for mostly everyone. Violence and property damage was kept to a minimum, and protesters were able to have their few days to get coverage and say what they wanted to say. The only losers were some local businesses unfortunately.



Whatever side you fall on, it would seem to me there isn't much reason to complain about how it went down. What am I missing here?

[Chi-town Native]

Originally Posted by ERS-One

The majority of protesters were indeed peaceful

And what's wrong with MY hometown being a place for all voices to be heard, no matter how crazy sounding?


I too was not a protester, and never was really concerned about "terrorism". I was more concerned about of repeat of Chicago '68 or Seattle '99. Was the show of manpower by the PD a little heavy? Perhaps, but in the end it seems like it was a win-win for mostly everyone. Violence and property damage was kept to a minimum, and protesters were able to have their few days to get coverage and say what they wanted to say. The only losers were some local businesses unfortunately.

Whatever side you fall on, it would seem to me there isn't much reason to complain about how it went down. What am I missing here?

People just like to make themselves feel better by pretending that government functions perfectly even without citizens standing up and making their voices heard.

It's completely delusional. These people would have been on the side of the Brits when they were forcing the quartering of troops in the colonists' homes.

And I'd LOVE to see one of these people actually tell me how the protesters were "loons" or "crazy" given this:

Cost of War to the United States | COSTOFWAR.COM

Click on that and blink a few times, it's in real time.

Then ask what the real cost to America, Illinois and Chicago is in terms of underfunded police, teachers, bridges, roads and other infrastructure, health care, etc.

Guns or butter, butter or guns.

I question the sanity of people who think this government is doing just fine by its citizens.

[gomexico]

Originally Posted by Chi-town Native

I question the sanity of people who think this government is doing just fine by its citizens.

I'm a strong supporter of expression of dissent and the discussion of any and all issues involving our "government" (be it local, state or federal) or any other issues touching on our culture and daily lives. As difficult as it is at times to hear voices saying things the opposite of what we believe or assume, we're a better, stronger nation for it.

[jdiddy]

I consider myself pretty liberal overall. I'd love to see us stop wasting hundreds of billions of dollars on pointless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. But I don't see how getting a bunch of scraggly kids sitting outside the Boeing building throwing paper airplanes at each other accomplishes this. Nor do I see how backing a few dozen lowlifes antagonizing the police all weekend is in my interest.

Doing something just for the sake of doing it, even when its counterproductive, isn't admirable. It's stupid.

[Chi-town Native]

Originally Posted by jdiddy

I consider myself pretty liberal overall. I'd love to see us stop wasting hundreds of billions of dollars on pointless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. But I don't see how getting a bunch of scraggly kids sitting outside the Boeing building throwing paper airplanes at each other accomplishes this. Nor do I see how backing a few dozen lowlifes antagonizing the police all weekend is in my interest.

Doing something just for the sake of doing it, even when its counterproductive, isn't admirable. It's stupid.

Why paint with such a broad brush?

The fact is you prove the protesters' point.

You're against the wars but you, personally, aren't doing anything about it, and in fact are counterproductively insulting the people who decided showing their support for peace was an important act.

Was it effective? Time will tell - but I'll tell you doing nothing certainly isn't.

And it's not like 99% of the protesters were even engaging in acts of civil disobedience, they were just literally being outside in a group. The fact is the 1st amendment is pretty clear, if you have a problem with people gathering on a public street you have a problem with the founding principle of America.

Zorn has a nice take/good links today:

Change of Subject: Let's go to the video -- Cameras everywhere subject police, protesters to further review

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by Chicago60614

What does this have to do with left or right? There was a situation, people blatantly watched it on TV and it's pretty obvious what was happening.

I'm a gay liberal who grew up in a college town. I hate the right for the most part. Given this situation though, I'm 100% with the police. This is a no-brainer. I was quite shocked at how well the police handled this weekend, and have a lot more respect for them than I had last Thursday, mostly due to the fact I was downtown Friday through Monday and interacted and saw things first hand.

Agreed. I am a left leaning person as well, always have been and the police were doing the right thing here. Anybody who thinks otherwise isn't using their head. The police were doing a very good job at letting peaceful protestors do what they want while trying to minimize them disrupting business. You might have a first amendment right to speak your mind (which I love), but the business owner who they are blocking also has a right to his business. People who actually live in the area also have a right to be left with some peace and quiet, and people on the street have a right at being able to walk through an area without hassle. The police were helping to maintain a balance between all of these things and did a great job overall.

Apart from that, anybody who thinks the police would actually let these guys CLOSER to McCormick is not using their heads. Secret service would shoot anybody who came within 100 feet of that place and wasn't authorized. Guaranteed. It would be terrible for everyone if either (a) we showed that Chicago wasn't capable of security/police stuff and/or (b) a foreign diplomat got hurt or killed.

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by Chi-town Native

Why paint with such a broad brush?

The fact is you prove the protesters' point.

You're against the wars but you, personally, aren't doing anything about it, and in fact are counterproductively insulting the people who decided showing their support for peace was an important act.

Was it effective? Time will tell - but I'll tell you doing nothing certainly isn't.

And it's not like 99% of the protesters were even engaging in acts of civil disobedience, they were just literally being outside in a group. The fact is the 1st amendment is pretty clear, if you have a problem with people gathering on a public street you have a problem with the founding principle of America.

Zorn has a nice take/good links today:

Change of Subject: Let's go to the video -- Cameras everywhere subject police, protesters to further review

Unfortunately, this is not like the Vietnam era marches and demonstrations. Those actually somewhat worked. I am way against the war, and most wars, but anybody who thinks you can get out of an area in a *snap* when there's thousands of troops there is clearly mistaken. It takes time to get out and finish "business" you're already in discussion about. It takes a little bit of time. Just because nobody is getting out NOW doesn't mean nobody is listening either.

Merit counts for something, but it depends on how you go about it. Saying you stood outside and walked doesn't mean anything is going to get done. This again goes on what I talked about before. Older people in government and business are going to be more apt to listen to you when you present yourselves as actual semi well kept intelligently speaking people. It's a fact of life in these days. Yes, it's not a good thing, but if you want them to listen, you have to play the game. Do you really think most wealthy CEOs are going to listen to a scraggly dude in a bandana and dreads? It doesn't mean that guy doesn't have a point. His point could easily be better than anybody else's, but it's all in the presentation. Most people in these positions are going to subconsciously not respect you as much if they see that. TRUST ME