At what point does lifestyle matter? v. Chicago Shootings (Davis: condo, buy)

[Chicago South Sider]

Originally Posted by Aleking

finding a way to greatly reduce teenage pregnancies would go a long way

As would cutting out financial incentives for having babies.

[ofcjim40]

Originally Posted by Chicago South Sider

As would cutting out financial incentives for having babies.

Crazy speak! You mean reduce incentives to stop popping babies left and right, reward not working and allow people to stay at home, pay for free or reduced housing, allow LINK to be used to buy non nutritious food, give free cellphones away and the list could go on. Oh by the way overtaxed middle class, we're raising your taxes to pay for this, keep working someone on welfare is counting on you. You barbarian!

[edsg25]

Originally Posted by ofcjim40

Crazy speak! You mean reduce incentives to stop popping babies left and right, reward not working and allow people to stay at home, pay for free or reduced housing, allow LINK to be used to buy non nutritious food, give free cellphones away and the list could go on. Oh by the way overtaxed middle class, we're raising your taxes to pay for this, keep working someone on welfare is counting on you. You barbarian!

ofcjim, i haven't followed this thread very closely, but I'm not sure why it is a bad thing to question tax credits for having children.

i am a parent, children raised, but I'm not sure I would say I deserved a tax credit. I also believe that I received them less because of the strain it would be on me to raise children without one and more on the notion that our economy runs on endless growth and depends on high birth rates for both consumers and to do the jobs that our capitalists need done.

my issue here though is far less about the tax credit, but seriously wondering:

WHAT IS WRONG WITH DISCOURAGING POPULATION INCREASES?


we're already way overpopulated, use too many resources as is, and effect every major ecosystem on the planet.

capitalism is built on endless growth and endless markets, but we're going to lose this population game/gain because it spells disaster for us.

I hardly would consider it being a barbarian to think so, but feel free to disagree.

[uffthefluff]

I hate to bring logic back into this discussion, but I don't think Chicago has any policies that specifically encourage poor people to not work or have children any more than other cities and states do, so that cannot be the underlying reason for our high murder rate.

[nikitakolata]

Originally Posted by edsg25

ofcjim, i haven't followed this thread very closely, but I'm not sure why it is a bad thing to question tax credits for having children.

i am a parent, children raised, but I'm not sure I would say I deserved a tax credit. I also believe that I received them less because of the strain it would be on me to raise children without one and more on the notion that our economy runs on endless growth and depends on high birth rates for both consumers and to do the jobs that our capitalists need done.

my issue here though is far less about the tax credit, but seriously wondering:

WHAT IS WRONG WITH DISCOURAGING POPULATION INCREASES?


we're already way overpopulated, use too many resources as is, and effect every major ecosystem on the planet.

capitalism is built on endless growth and endless markets, but we're going to lose this population game/gain because it spells disaster for us.

I hardly would consider it being a barbarian to think so, but feel free to disagree.

I'm pretty sure ofcjim was being sarcastic and was basically saying we should stop giving people incentives to have more children (aka welfare payments that go up when you have more children). There was definitely a typo in the post, but I think what he was saying is that it is dumb that we give people without the means to afford children an incentive to have more of them.

[LeotheOrangeCat]

It's been like this for a long time and it will be like this for a long time.

You have a teen mom (generation 1) that didn't receive proper parenting or education. Her child (generation 2) doesn't receive proper parenting or education and that child then has a child (generation 3). That child doesn't receive proper parenting or education and . . . The cumulative effects are intractable. How do you fix it? You don't. It cannot be fixed. You just lock a lot of people up.

[jonnynonos]

About half the murders are directly related to gangs/the drug trade.

[LookingForEden]

What do I think? I think I don't know. I don't think anyone who hasn't lived that life would know. I dated a guy whose dad was a pimp and uncle was the head of a gang. Somehow, his uncle recognized that he was something special, and ordered everyone to leave him alone. He graduated from college with a degree in journalism and was helping his sister pursue the same college path. I see him as an exception. I don't think "everyone" in that situation could overcome it. It's like saying we could all be Oprah or Obama or Bush or Angelina Jolie.

I will say, I am VERY, VERY, VERY tired of people blaming the parents, schools, etc. This shows an inherent disregard for the system that is far greater than they are. It is like looking at the very bottom trickles of a waterfall and saying, "Well, that's where all the water is coming from." No-- when you look at the microcosm, you are failing to see the big picture. You are failing to see that, first of all, there is NO NEED for more educated people, is there? What jobs are there, waiting for them with this "education"? I look around and see people who have had privilege and still struggle. You are failing to see that when they go to a school, they may not have their basic needs met, like regular meals, or even the same bed. I learned that there are children in Rockford called "couch kids," named as such because they sleep on different sofas every night.

I find it amusing, too, when people look at the so-called better schools and praise the teachers and administrators. Oh, so this school in, let's say Hinsdale, where there are no or few English language learners, everyone has more than their basic needs met, their parents have books in the home and have been formally educated, etc., and yet the school gets the credit??? Ah, yes, and then there is the whole property tax funding schools link, too . . .Show me instead a school that has actual OBSTACLES and helps the children to succeed. Praise is then deserved!

I think it would be very interesting to invest in communities in the way that Roosevelt did-- build, create, inspire. But what is the incentive for this? There is none! Unlike places like Japan where they see that investing in the "whole" helps everyone, here we look out only for ourselves, and the answer is to try to segregate ourselves as much as possible, creating invisible gates on communities, hoping the stray bullets don't come our way.

I read this recently: "Poor people don't live a life of ease freeloading off the government.That would be the rich." Anyone who has been to an impoverished area can SEE there is no life of ease there . . .there is suffering.

[RememberMee]

Originally Posted by linicx

The sad truth is we have too many, under-employed and under-educated, who were failed by their parents and their schools, who believe they are entitled to have every wish fulfilled without earning any.

The saddest truth is the failure to educate all of our children. Especially those who are just a little bit shorter, or just a little bit slower, who are having just a little bit of trouble keeping up. These problems are showing up in the younger primary grades while tenured teachers look the other way. I witnessed this more than once in more than one school.

.

So, you educated and "unfailed" everybody to your liking, what's next? Poverty and gangs no more after every cashier and a part time janitor would earn his Ph.D. and learn French, huh? People can't be this naive to believe that or can they? The problem is not a lack of the proper education and indoctrination. The problem is that the "system" gives fundamentally false promises of "upward mobility" to everybody who do this and that right, everybody who's not "upwardly mobile" is welcome to blame himself. In other words, pure and unashamed circular logic in its simplest form is used to control masses. Education (or lack of it) is skillfully being used to cool down unrealistic expectations and to direct blame away from the hierarchical "system" dispensing fundamentally false promises.

Civilizations of status know no existential meanings other than boosting individual status using all means necessary. You don't give ganbangers their dues. They are not stupid, actually they are smart enough to see through falsehood of the circular logic (they may lack proper vocabulary and grammar to express their knowledge though), but they know rather well that following a realistic life path of a generic wage slave residing in their neighborhoods would buy them no respect/status, little money, rotten teeth, crushing feeling of defeat and self-loathing, and bunch of chronic deseases on top of that as a reward. That's not the image of good life that was imbedded in their brains by the very same "system" that dispenses fundamentally false promises. They would rather risk the most precious asset they've got (their life) to have a miniscule shot on higher status (as seen on TV).

The hierarchical "system" needs low status dispensable units to keep it running and to provide for those on the higher perches. At the same time it needs to control all those lower status units. It does that by using a carrot of "opportunity" to join upper classes (if you play your card right). For a carrot of "opportunity" to be appealing "the system" unleashes all its propaganda and mass cult arsenals to put down low status social classes and lines of work they do in order to isolate and shame the majority into obedience (it's all your fault for being there after all). The social control scheme is very simple and plainly obvious (to every one except worshipers and beneficiaries of "education"), yet many folks in the middle are scratching their heads in disbelief that some low status units would prefer high risk crime life to a generic wage slave drudgery and self-blame, or that some people would rather risk their lives instead of cherishing sacred middle class values of self-adjustment and rat race.

It's not strictly Chicagoan or American "phenomenon", Europe (even Eastern Europe ) experiences something similar. Younger generations are raised by subtle propaganda and mass cult delivering strictly selected images of "good life", behavioral stereotypes, aspirations, etc.. Then your average youngster looks around and see that hard "honest" work would never buy all those images of good life as seen on TV. Mismatch of aspirations and reality. Social steam is building up. Bolder alpha youngsters put their life on the line in order to avoid low status life paths (i.e. backbone of hierarchical societies) using all means necessary. Less gutsier ones just don't give a dime and are compelled to do things by fear and survival instincts. I don't see how more of "education" can resolve anything. Little reminder, most, actually ALL the revolutions/social movements, etc. in the past 200 years history were masterminded and lead by over-educated and underemployed. "The system" utilizing formal education as a social control tool is playing with fire, literally.

[Davis Street]

Unfortunately, with Rahm's police cutbacks, the homicide rates is soaring again (up nearly 40% this year), and will probably only get worse.

The gangsters are moving out of the traditional South/West Side war zones into the core areas. There have been frequent Mag Mile-area beatings this year, including six separate incidents last weekend (including an dude with his GF who had his eye socket torn out on the Red Line in River North).

I don't think the tourist bureau will put this in their publications!