At what point does lifestyle matter? v. Chicago Shootings (mortgage, student loans)

[edsg25]

we live in a society of great income inequity and wide disparity. the social safety net continues to unravel. jobs do not exist. we have unleashed every form of social ill upon ourselves.

much as we'd like, we cannot "enforce" our way our of the problem, no matter how many police are on the streets or how many prisons we build (prison building being one of the few glowing sectors of the american economy).

nations with the least income disparity have the fewest crimes. society works. it's not just altruism that is play; it's also pure self-interest: my own safety depends how much equity there is in society and how much of a stake all citizens have in it. of course we want to and should stop crime, but we are not going to do it by ignoring the root causes of that crime. the murders, shootings, etc. are merely a symptom of what it means to be forced to live a life on the margins of society among people, large numbers of people, who have basically been discarded by the rest of us.

our cities and states are penniless, devastated by the lack of funding from the federal government which has put its priorities elsewhere....protecting the rich (the rest of us be damned) and fighting endless wars with a military that is larger than all the other militaries in the world combined (try building logic around that one).no municipality, chicago included, is equipped to deal with the problems on its plate.

you get what you pay for. or don't pay for. and we don't. as noted, that social safety net gets more and more tattered; the worst is yet to come. chicago suffers with street violence and guns and killings for one reason: chicago is part of america. our problems come with what it means to be an american city.

[lenniel]

The numbers of teen pregnancies are on the decline nationwide and aside from that it is not just black teens or hispanic teens who are having babies.


This is true, BUT, the vast marjority of gun violence committed in Chicago is black on black and perpetrated by kids who come from families with no father, in which the mother got pregnant at an early age, she didn't get an education, etc, etc. The cycle just repeats itself.

Until this culture in the black community changes, you'll continue to see all the problems associated with young, poor, minority, uneducated, late of family structure, kids.

It's the hard truth, sorry.

[lenniel]

Originally Posted by Diws

I say that we offer cold, hard cash in the ghetto in exchange for vasectomies.

This actually isn't a bad idea although the social science do-gooders would fall all over themselves.

I say you offer 14 year old girls $1,000 per year (or some $ amount) to go on long term birth control and they get that $1,000/yr until they're 30 (or whatever age).
There's obviously a lot of logisitics and administrative issues to figure out but it's a lot cheaper than having another welfare baby.

[lenniel]

Originally Posted by Ace Rothstein

The problem in the black community with teen pregnancy is that it has been happening over multiple generations in some cases. So you have multiple generations in families where they didn't finish school and don't value education.

You also don't have the complete breakdown of the family structure in the other communities like you have seen in the black community.

Bingo! This is exactly the problem.

[Diws]

Originally Posted by lenniel

This actually isn't a bad idea although the social science do-gooders would fall all over themselves.

I say you offer 14 year old girls $1,000 per year (or some $ amount) to go on long term birth control and they get that $1,000/yr until they're 30 (or whatever age).
There's obviously a lot of logisitics and administrative issues to figure out but it's a lot cheaper than having another welfare baby.

Right on both counts, particularly the hysterical reaction that would follow.

The vasectomy idea has the virtue of being simple, and a one-time process. It could be reversed too, though in this case not on the public's dime.

I'm sure it would hit some legal challenges, but as long as there is no coercion involved I don't see why it would not hold up.

I would submit that the warehousing of the disproportionately minority young males in prisons has a certain unacknowledged eugenic rationale, as indeed does the legalizing of abortion ( this one more acknowledged, and documented by Levit and Dubner).

[lenniel]

Originally Posted by edsg25

we live in a society of great income inequity and wide disparity. the social safety net continues to unravel. jobs do not exist. we have unleashed every form of social ill upon ourselves.

much as we'd like, we cannot "enforce" our way our of the problem, no matter how many police are on the streets or how many prisons we build (prison building being one of the few glowing sectors of the american economy).

nations with the least income disparity have the fewest crimes. society works. it's not just altruism that is play; it's also pure self-interest: my own safety depends how much equity there is in society and how much of a stake all citizens have in it. of course we want to and should stop crime, but we are not going to do it by ignoring the root causes of that crime. the murders, shootings, etc. are merely a symptom of what it means to be forced to live a life on the margins of society among people, large numbers of people, who have basically been discarded by the rest of us.

our cities and states are penniless, devastated by the lack of funding from the federal government which has put its priorities elsewhere....protecting the rich (the rest of us be damned) and fighting endless wars with a military that is larger than all the other militaries in the world combined (try building logic around that one).no municipality, chicago included, is equipped to deal with the problems on its plate.

you get what you pay for. or don't pay for. and we don't. as noted, that social safety net gets more and more tattered; the worst is yet to come. chicago suffers with street violence and guns and killings for one reason: chicago is part of america. our problems come with what it means to be an american city.

Do you hate America? Why don't you move to Canada, Sweden or Iceland?

[gomexico]

Originally Posted by AmosBanks

Many of the victims would still be with us if they were a little less "'bout that life". What do you think?

From what I learn about many of these shootings/killings ... the victims are innocents. Not gang members. Frequently children, or young adults. Victims because they live in a certain neighborhood where violence like this has, unfortunately, become commonplace. There was nothing wrong with their lifestyle.

[AmosBanks]

Originally Posted by gomexico

From what I learn about many of these shootings/killings ... the victims are innocents. Not gang members. Frequently children, or young adults. Victims because they live in a certain neighborhood where violence like this has, unfortunately, become commonplace. There was nothing wrong with their lifestyle.

There was a young lady killed last weekend. She was made out to be an innocent bystander because she is not involved in a gang. Turns out her boyfriend is a gang member and he was the target. This is what I mean by lifestyle. If she dated a guy on the straight and narrow then she would likely still be alive.

[oakparkdude]

Originally Posted by AmosBanks

There was a young lady killed last weekend. She was made out to be an innocent bystander because she is not involved in a gang. Turns out her boyfriend is a gang member and he was the target. This is what I mean by lifestyle. If she dated a guy on the straight and narrow then she would likely still be alive.

That happens quite a bit. Sometimes young children of gangbangers get hit/killed too. Unfortunately, they don't get to choose who their parents are. Sometimes simply being a black male in a bad neighborhood makes you a target by other gangs in cases of mistaken identity.

[Deeman804]

Originally Posted by lenniel

This actually isn't a bad idea although the social science do-gooders would fall all over themselves.

I say you offer 14 year old girls $1,000 per year (or some $ amount) to go on long term birth control and they get that $1,000/yr until they're 30 (or whatever age).
There's obviously a lot of logisitics and administrative issues to figure out but it's a lot cheaper than having another welfare baby.

This is a ludicrous suggestion. I think reparations would be a better use of money since we are the cause of the systemic psychological and family breakdown to the black community that Ace mentioned.

To save money, the best solution is to improve the lower class to use their population to increase the tax base. Reducing a race population (because that is the vast majority of poor people) is a very ignorant way of looking at the situation.