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hey to Mtjnmemphis and to ChicagoSouthSider - I was thinking about what you said - can you tell me what behaviors or attitudes people actaully do in lakeview/lincoln park that make you think they are unfriendly to you?
Do you think its your skin color or do you think it could be something personal about you? or do you think your expectations are different? ie.. some people feel it is mandatory to say good morning in the morning because if you walk by without greeting them in the morning, your being rude. And does this "rude" behavior happen a lot or just sometimes?
Maybe you are looking for manners or something in a place that is not like that, its just typical city behavior. For example, if you go out in the country and down south, (even people in New Orleans said this) that things are done differently there. I even experienced difference of how people act between chicago and when i go visit Michigan or even Savannah, Illinois, or downstate Illinois, yes there is a huge difference. maybe you are looking for that small town mom and pop attitude in a city where there is none of it typically.
dont go to New York City, because you will be taking your midwestern ways and if you expect them to be nice as people in chicago, you will probably be saying the same thing - i.e. NYC is very cold because its a tougher way of life there.
then again, if you have already made up your mind that whites hate blacks in Lincoln Park and Lakeview, then nothing i can say can help you change your mind because its already made up. and I know not everyone is rude or uncaring for blacks in those neighborhoods.
Seeing as I’m quick to puncture what I perceive as excessive windbaggery with snarky barbs, I’ll readily concede to anyone who wishes to accuse me of hypocrisy on account the gigantic pile of bloviation that is about to follow. (edsg25, I beg your forgiveness in particular.)
mjtinmemphis, It seems like a great deal of your disillusionment revolves not around your Chicago experience but your Lakeview experience, and even more specifically, your Boystown experience. Given that the Lakeview social scene represents a vanishingly narrow demographic and Boystown a narrower demographic still, it seems rather unfair to extrapolate your experiences from a sub-segment of a sub- segment of Chicago into "the Chicago experience" as you see it – especially considering the number of transplants from outside the Chicago area who inhabit the neighborhood you've become disillusioned with.
I'll be honest with you and I won't pretend like race relations in this city are rosy everywhere else outside of Lakeview. Surely any of us in the Chicago forum could debate the complexities of Chicago race relations ad nauseum, and in fact many of us have already so a thousand times. But if we’re to choose a neighborhood to represent a microcosm of Chicago demographics, values, and attitudes, Lakeview sure as hell wouldn’t be the place. This is acutely true of Boystown in light of your disillusionment with that particular neighborhood and how the lack of inclusion there is mirrored in gay neighborhoods in other cities. (Good Lord -- haven't any of these people seen pictures of The Village People??)
(Sorry, bad joke -- I couldn't resist. But let's all acknowledge that it's fun to stay at the YMCA and move on.)
Right, so back to our serious discussion. In your estimation, "[Lakeview] residents and many visitors are not accustomed to socializing with Blacks who are normal. They see the thugs on the streets and the trains and think thats Black culture. Of course they like Martin Luther King Jr. and President Obama but they choose not to interact with Blacks. walk up and down any of the streets that I mention above on a Friday and Saturday evening. See how socially advanced the patrons are."
This suburban-raised white boy is here to tell you, you're about 95% correct. You've nailed this much: many Lakeview residents are not accustomed to socializing with "normal" black people. But here’s where you lose the 5% in my book: what you perceive as "blacks who are normal," many Lakeview residents and the broader demographic they represent perceive as "blacks who don't hate us and don't want to hurt us but still represent a culture that we don't relate to."
And frankly it's hard to blame either side considering the disparate experiences and values each side brings to the table, even in the post-Obama era. Yes. we're a product of our times: for the first time in history, most of us really do want to get along. But each side would still prefer to get along on its own terms, and we're still trying to meet in the middle. Unfortunately for the black side of the ledger, the white side still has the numbers to insist that "the middle" resembles the values and habits white people are comfortable with more than those that black people are comfortable with.
Yes, the stereotypical post-frat/sorority Lakeview resident likes MLK. And yes, many of them voted for Obama even if an unusual-for-Chicago percentage of them might have otherwise voted Republican. These are artifacts of the "idealism versus reality" conundrum I touched upon in my prior post: these are safe and convenient gestures of racial-harmony ideals that don't require their expressers to intimately test those ideals. Cowardly? Opportunistic? Perhaps. But it beats the hell out of voting for the other guy just to keep a dark-skinned man out of the White House like Archie Bunker would have.
So their children grew up believing that black kids believe all the same stuff white kids do and see the world the same way white kids do. And it’s a hell of a shock when they interact with those black "kids" (now adults) for the first time and find out that contrary to what they’ve been taught, we still see the world very differently from each other. It makes those interactions awkward to say the least, and some react by limiting their interactions with black people altogether because they're utterly unprepared for it. And some just plain become disillusioned, and seeing the "thugs on the streets and the trains" only adds to their shock and disillusionment. That doesn't make them Archie Bunkers, but it does mean we still have a lot of work to do.
I'm not sure this soapbox can hold me up for much longer, so I'm gonna step down now.
Last edited by Drover; 09-01-2012 at 01:52 PM..
Reason: punctuation n' stuff
^ Very well put. A little off topic, but lost idealism and refusal to walk the walk among the Boomer generation as a whole resonates with me. That generation had so much promise in its youth (questioning govt regarding Vietnam and providing a lot of the muscle that allowed members of the older generation in power to push through Civil Rights legislation). Sad to see it all devolve into the Greed is Good parts I and II of the 80s and 00s, spend to much/save too little, and "I'm gonna protect my piece at all costs" re: retirement benefits, etc. Don't get me wrong, I think retirement benefits and the like are extremely important, but that can is getting kicked down the road (buck is getting passed, whatever metaphor you prefer) to people in their 20s to 40s.
A lot of people buy into this myth that baby boomers were not racist, because they protested Vietnam.
There is a huge difference between shirking your duty and being a non-racist. There were not a lot of white baby boomers who marched for civil rights nor where there many who stood in solidarity with Cesar Chavez, the black panthers, and the like. Yea maybe that happened in Berkeley or Oakland, but it did not happen in Chicago.
Hmmm for that matter, IF it is true that the younger generation is acting a particular way, I don't know what to say about that.. IF it is true. I only know about myself. I can only see examples of how younger people act, and make a judgment. If they act a particular way, they may have valid reasons.
Could these things have an impact on friendliness/neighborliness in general that would make a person feel unwelcome, but it has NOTHING to do with thier race, but a black person has jumped to the conclusion it is race related when its really the consequence of today's society in general -
For example, technology has brought people inside playing video games (especially kids); and online shopping has kept us more indoors, this causes less and less people to interact with each other and developing the old fashioned manners some of us are used to?
The increase in crime and people not knowing their neighbors has caused people to be wary of others. (some of this is just practical/logical street smarts needed nowadays i.e. you cant go to bed with your doors unlocked today unlike we used to when i was growing up). kids are being shot in their own living room when a drive by shooter shoots their gun and it hits a kid in their own home. its not safe to play in the corner park like when we were a kid. Too many drive bys and gang bangers.. all this keeps people inside.
the breakdown of the family and breakdown of morals, plus the increase of trailer trash tv reality shows, which might have started with Jerry Springer, and that other guy with the "big mouth" , and now has sunk down to Honey Boo boo trailer trash and Kardashians, all praised and enjoyed, of course this is going to have some effect on our minds.
The prevalence of single mother family (no father figure); the increase of two parents having to work, because they often need to, causing kids to be raised in day care, and that has an affect on the kids not getting raised by parents. particular music - glorifies sex and the gangster lifestyle - specifically rap and gangster rap. yes i said it. some people think rap is benign - i say it is a curse. it glorifies women as sex objects, think niki minaj as a prime example. Lady Gaga for that matter, though she is not rap, but she is a horrid example. Madonna was bad too in her day. music has really gotten bad.
this is just a few examples of what today's generation is putting up with.. its no more the simple life we had in the 1960s and 1970s.. i think this may contribute to the two black gentlemen here who might wish things were nice like back in the 1970's and are looking for that mom and pop way of life and manners and courtesy but unfortunately are living in today's reality, and you cant find that regularly unless you go out in the country which i do when i want some of that.
by the way, do you know that the early housing projects in the 1930's had white people livng there, flowers and was a reeally lovely place to live. Nice idea. now trashed. Homes that have been built in 1800's are still here. Can you explain that? I can. its when CTA stopped checking people and let just anyone in and the thugs took it over, you see what thugs do to a nice neighborhood? Now who wants to live in the projects unless its their last hope.
My point is, some of this bad feelings is justified. If all i see on TV is thuggery, im going to begin to adopt some protective atittudes. sorry that innocent people are being judged along with others that look like them, but sad but true. lets have some better examples .. all we can do is be responsble for our own behavior.. i cant speak for anyone else. i tried to explain it but maybe im full of it.. who knows.
or i may be totally wrong, but thats my opinion for now. I'm not a social scientist. Plus i would have to meet these two gentlemen to see some of this injustice or perceived injustice in person.
^ Very well put. A little off topic, but lost idealism and refusal to walk the walk among the Boomer generation as a whole resonates with me. That generation had so much promise in its youth (questioning govt regarding Vietnam and providing a lot of the muscle that allowed members of the older generation in power to push through Civil Rights legislation). Sad to see it all devolve into the Greed is Good parts I and II of the 80s and 00s, spend to much/save too little, and "I'm gonna protect my piece at all costs" re: retirement benefits, etc. Don't get me wrong, I think retirement benefits and the like are extremely important, but that can is getting kicked down the road (buck is getting passed, whatever metaphor you prefer) to people in their 20s to 40s.
We have gone over this several times. Racial slurrs have been used, bad service, employment denied at many locally owned businesses and the list goes on. There is nothing wrong or immoral with not skipping down the street with a smile on your face saying good morning world. There is nothing immoral with not growing up in a United Nations type of town singing "so happy together". There is nothing immoral with befriending people you have things in common with. There is something immoral with saying that people shouldn't live where they want to live regardless of their situation. There is something immoral (and dangerous) with wanting to confront someone because they are in "your neighborhood". The fact is I nor anyone else has to respect racial bigotry or racial supremacy. I feel that is the reason for this dialog.
JayT - i knew the no "good morming" was part of it.
Well heck, you might think i hate you because i too dont feel like saying hi in the morning.. im too crabby and not yet woke. i guess some people who i have passed by without saying goodmorning might have felt like i was prejudiced against them when it was merely i haven't woke up yet.
in a word, what you said comes down to manners and old fashioned hospitality, but those days might be gone with the wind, just like 5 cent candy, leaving your doors open and night, and taking people at their word.
these things also happen in other parts of chicago.. i hate the fact that lakeview is getting flamed when its happening all over. i wrote a thread about a perceived bourgeousie attitude against me, when i have tried to shop at Macys and another jewelry store on north michigan ave - was it my imagination or was it that i was dressed in a tee shirt and shorts and the folks there didn't seem to try to want to wait on me. so you see bad attitudes follow us everywhere, or else i was being super-sensitive, who knows.
also i said before you should live where you want, not just because its the law. if your a decent person, hope you want to be my neighbor as Mr Rodgers said.
i cant speak for any one else, i can only speak for me.
...So their children grew up believing that black kids believe all the same stuff white kids do and see the world the same way white kids do. And it’s a hell of a shock when they interact with those black "kids" (now adults) for the first time and find out that contrary to what they’ve been taught, we still see the world very differently from each other. It makes those interactions awkward to say the least, and some react by limiting their interactions with black people altogether because they're utterly unprepared for it. And some just plain become disillusioned, and seeing the "thugs on the streets and the trains" only adds to their shock and disillusionment. That doesn't make them Archie Bunkers, but it does mean we still have a lot of work to do.
I'm not sure this soapbox can hold me up for much longer, so I'm gonna step down now.
Excellent post.
And I think this gets mistaken for racism more often than not.
Racism:
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
True, legitimate racism, I believe is almost non-existent. What I do believe exists, and on a much larger and prevalent scale, is "culturalism", and I think that plays a much larger role in Chicago segregation than real, genuine racism. I believe I made that word up because spellcheck is telling me to change it, and dictionary.com doesn't have an entry for it. My idea of "culturalism" is the belief that one way of living life is preferred, and possibly even "better", than other ways and subsequently people seek out that way of living. I don't know if that adequately explains what I'm thinking but I will try to elaborate.
I have a family member who worked for a company that employed people of different races and backgrounds. The job wasn't one where people could sit around and still accomplish things. You had to be up and moving, doing some pretty back breaking work. This person would have no problem calling a fellow employee a derogatory term if they didn't work hard, made excuses, or tried to avoid actually working. They also wouldn't associate with those people. But if a fellow employee would work hard, help others out and really worked to make the environment better, this family member would associate with them and even befriend them. This person segregated him/herself from people who didn't hold the same work ethic.
Is that racism? I don't think so. I think it's culturalism. There wasn't a belief that one race was automatically superior to another. But there was a belief that a certain way to do things (in this case, work) was a superior way, the "right" way, and less than that was not something to be accepted or even associated with.
I used to work at a pizza place. I tried to go the extra mile to make sure things were done, and done right. There were other people there that couldn't care less about the job at hand. Slacking off, throwing food, avoiding assigned duties, passing the blame, etc. I didn't associate with them, and when I had to, I didn't cut them any slack, I might have even been harsh on them, and I wouldn't try to help them. If my job was to help them, I sucked it up and did it, because it was my job.
Does that make me a racist? Even if all the people working there were white (which they were)? Or does it mean that they had a different culture (in this case, work ethic) than me and I segregated myself from it?
I used to work in a shipping warehouse. Good Lord, was it terrible. I worked a minimum of eight hour shifts, but it could have, and usually did, entail more than that. Nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, even 14 hour shifts weren't uncommon. You had to stay until the job was done. Some people took extra long breaks, I didn't. Some people would walk away from their job and go talk to other people or just go take an unsanctioned break. Some people purposefully did less work than they were capable of because they knew that someone else was going to come in and pick up the slack, not because they had to, but because that's what it took to get the job done. Was I friendly to those people? No. Did I bad mouth those people? Yes. Did their "culture" (work ethic) of doing as little as possible make the job harder for everyone else and made people resent them? Yes.
Does that make me a racist?
I think how someone acts, what they do, what their values are, what their preferences for entertainment, fashion, and leisure are, are more important in segregation than strictly what color they are, or where they came from.
Am I a racist if I segregate myself from them because my culture doesn't fit with theirs?
Am I a racist if I segregate myself from Bloods or Crips or Latin Kings because my culture doesn't fit with theirs?
Am I a racist if I segregate myself from people that think their race is superior to other races?
Am I a racist if I only like country music and I never go to bars that play only hip hop? Or vice versa?
Am I a racist if I segregate myself from people who don't value education and learning?
Am I a racist if I segregate myself from people who don't value their own property, let alone the property of others?
Am I a racist if I segregate myself from people who willingly choose to sport fashions that were started in prison?
Am I a racist if I segregate myself from people who are rude, loud and obnoxious?
Am I a racist if I segregate myself from people who smoke crack?
Am I a racist if I segregate myself from people with swastika tattoos?
Am I a racist if I live in a big city and I treat everyone from smaller locations as inferior simply because of where they're from? Or vice versa?
All those things, and much, much more are things that are not bound to one race or ethnicity. Anyone could be a part of it. All of those cultural traits, characteristics, or mannerisms play a part in where someone lives, works, plays, shops, etc. Racism doesn't take any of those things into consideration. The only thing important to a racist is skin color or ethnicity.
Person A and Person B both behave and dress the same way. They have the same set of values and make the same amount of money. They enjoy the same entertainment, and enjoy the same leisure activities. For all practical purposes they are the same except one is white and one is black. A racist denies the black person the same services, courtesies, and options that they give to the white person. A "culturalist" would treat them both the same.
Person A is white, and Person B is black. Person A is poor, uneducated, filthy, has no respect for others, and only cares about themselves. Person B is well off, highly educated, clean and kept, treats others as they would like to be treated and is altruistic in nature. A (white) racist treats Person A fairly, while completely dismissing, denying, and discriminating against Person B. A "culturalist" could choose to associate with either one, or both.
Do real, genuine racists exist? Yes. Are they as prevalent as they once were? No. Do they have as much influence in society now, as they did in the past? No. Will racism ever be eliminated from America, or the world? Probably not, but I hope it will be.
Will culture continue to influence a person as to where they live, work, play, and who they associate with? Yes. Will that ever change? I don't think so.
I totally agree with the above poster. You know, if I have nothing in common with another person, then I won't want to hang out with them. I have nothing to contribute, and if i have to hang out with them and endure the music they like but that i hate, i will be miserable. If i have to wear clothing that is uncomfortable I wont have anything in common except to want to run outta there as quick as possible. If they do activities that I dont know anything about nor have anything i want to indulge in, then Im not going to hang out with them. it just makes sense, and does not make anyone a racist.
however, if you read my paragraph here and think I am talking about black people only, then i think YOU might be a racist, because I was talking about other groups of people that i dont care to hang out with - the rich people who go to the opera as a regularly occuring event, people who frequent the country clubs, people who are sports fans, (I hate sports), women who are loud and talk about makeup and fashions (think the women on The View), Wall Street people, people who are called "suits", country music, slam dancing, having to wear high heels and dresses that are uncomfortable but fashionable, and people like Honey Boo boo who are trailer trash and I wouild feel icky hanging out with them as they fart, burp and act like a total pig all for national TV on the channel TLC for laughs. For that matter, add the Kardashians and the teens on MTV who have that crappy show.
I said all that to say that I have no interest in the above people and they are not all black in that group that i outlined above. And I wonder, how come comedians note these differences all the time and we laugh about it, wow listening to some, you;d think wow theres a lot of racism in the world (think Chris Rock). but we laugh about the differences, and they ARE there. maybe we have to lower our expectations and not expect people to sing kumbaya as we want.
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