what Makes Chicago Public Schools Bad (Aurora, Naperville: real estate, transfer, school district)

[BRU67]

Originally Posted by Vlajos

Not tried that, they are doing that.

By the outcry i first thought they actually took them out back and shot them. Then i read further and it was just expulsions. The idea that if you act out and disrupt others you get expelled seemed common sense to me but then again, I grew up in an ancient bygone era - the 1980s. So maybe my views are a bit old fashioned.

It'll be interesting to see if they maintain the policy in the face of pressure to ensure that "everybody wins" (except those trying to study apparently!).

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by BRU67

By the outcry i first thought they actually took them out back and shot them. Then i read further and it was just expulsions. The idea that if you act out and disrupt others you get expelled seemed common sense to me but then again, I grew up in an ancient bygone era - the 1980s. So maybe my views are a bit old fashioned.

It'll be interesting to see if they maintain the policy in the face of pressure to ensure that "everybody wins" (except those trying to study apparently!).

Obviously, there are no easy solutions. And the issue to me is not teachers and schools it's economics and parenting. School districts have very little control over this.

[Attrill]

Originally Posted by BRU67

The charter schools tried that and it erupted into a huge scandal. It was widely decried as cruel.

That was not the point at all. The scandal was that charters are being judged vs. traditional CPS schools based on things like test scores and college acceptance rates. If a school has the ability to expel troubled and underperforming students, then they should obviously be able to perform better than any school that can't.

What was really damning was that the only two charter networks that have (slightly) higher test scores than the CPS average were also the two that expelled the highest percentage of students.

At three campuses in the Noble Network of Charter Schools, which has faced backlash over its disciplinary approach, anywhere from 2 percent to nearly 5 percent of students were expelled in the last school year.

At Urban Prep Academies, which annually boasts a nearly perfect college acceptance rate, more than 3 percent of the student body was expelled during the last school year at three campuses. At district-run schools, just over 0.05 percent of the student body was expelled last year.

That's 20 to 100 times the rate of expulsions! It's important to remember that every one of the kids who were kicked out then went to a traditional CPS school, where they could drive down their test scores.

[Vlajos]

CPS is 85% low income. There are a lot of suburban bred people that are afraid of poor people. Our CPS school is about 50% low income, my experience is that all the families in the school care, but some have less resources at home. I know a bosnian family that barely speaks english, the parents can't help their kids with that subject. One of their kids is in class with one of my kids. He is math wiz though, because his parents can help with that.

We have no behavioural issues at the school, at least that you wouldn't also see in Naperville. Obviously the vast majority of people don't want to send their kids to a dangerous school, but again, that is a problem at a higher level than a school district can handle.

[chet everett]

Originally Posted by Vlajos

CPS is 85% low income. There are a lot of suburban bred people that are afraid of poor people. Our CPS school is about 50% low income, my experience is that all the families in the school care, but some have less resources at home. I know a bosnian family that barely speaks english, the parents can't help their kids with that subject. One of their kids is in class with one of my kids. He is math wiz though, because his parents can help with that.

We have no behavioural issues at the school, at least that you wouldn't also see in Naperville. Obviously the vast majority of people don't want to send their kids to a dangerous school, but again, that is a problem at a higher level than a school district can handle.

Though I often sing the praises of how much smarter it is for folks relocating to the region to try to move into an affluent area I do that mostly because the data shows that is far and away the easiest way to BOTH ensure your kids will have access to good school AND because it is the best insurance that your investment in housing will be most resistant from downward price pressures.

I am familiar with the fact that many lower income immigrants choose to live near others from their home country and this creates pockets of folks with limited ability to really provide all the advantages that come with affluence in this country. That said I know many immigrants are incredibly motivated to overcome challenges and that is a big reason why so many immigrants do so well when it comes to starting their own businesses and succeeding in demanding technical careers. This are clearly NOT the kinds of people making CPS schools bad!

There is another group of people that do live in lower cost urban areas. Folks in this category may have come to the US for opportunity too or perhaps have generations of family that can trace their heritage back to folks unwillingly removed from their native lands. Folks in these categories however lack the respect for traditional paths to success and even lack respect for laws that ultimately keep them and their neighborhoods safe. By fostering a kind of lawlessness or "doing whatever you need to get by" attitude they do harm the environment needed for the kind of slow long term success that comes from education. People in this category hurt CPS.

CPS is not like other school districts in Illinois. Where other towns be they affluent or poor, rural or urbanized, liberal or conservative have to CHOOSE THEIR OWN BOARD OF EDUCATION in elections and then HOLD THOSE ELECTED OFFICIALS ACCOUNTABLE for the both the COSTS of the schools as well as the success or failure of the schools, in CHICAGO THE MAYOR APPOINTS THE BOE! Then when the Mayor won't let any of his appointees raise taxes to give schools the funds needed for success the "game" of finger pointed and blame goes full tilt. Meanwhile the Mayor sends his own kids to one of the most costly private schools in the region and gets all puffed up if asked why CPS schools aren't good enough for his own kids! THIS SEVERALLY HURTS CPS!

Finally the fact is that CPS remains a very large bureaucratic enterprise. Many schools do not have effective leadership -- their principal may have the job largely because no one else wanted it. Their LSC are comprised of local hucksters and those aligned with do-nothing politicians. Often times the teachers in these schools lack depth of knowledge both in the specific subject matter that they have not kept pace with as well as research into what sorts of classroom techniques are most likely to increase student success. These people hurt CPS.

[BRU67]

Originally Posted by Attrill

That was not the point at all. The scandal was that charters are being judged vs. traditional CPS schools based on things like test scores and college acceptance rates. If a school has the ability to expel troubled and underperforming students, then they should obviously be able to perform better than any school that can't.

What was really damning was that the only two charter networks that have (slightly) higher test scores than the CPS average were also the two that expelled the highest percentage of students.

That's 20 to 100 times the rate of expulsions! It's important to remember that every one of the kids who were kicked out then went to a traditional CPS school, where they could drive down their test scores.

I see. So one part of the point was that the charter schools shouldn't expel so many kids because, well, the disruptive kids are just too big to fail, much like General Motors.

Actually, if the CPS is serious about the problem, it should look into building itself a bunch of these...

The SEED Foundation Home » The SEED Foundation

Another part of the point is that low income kids who are not disruptive will still score poorly on standardized tests. That's no newsflash. But expelling the troubled kids and getting them into an appropriate environment is a start. Then you focus on raising the scores of the non-disruptive kids. CPS should also consider mandatory and free preschool, which is known to help scores down the line.

[BRU67]

Originally Posted by chet everett

CPS is not like other school districts in Illinois. Where other towns be they affluent or poor, rural or urbanized, liberal or conservative have to CHOOSE THEIR OWN BOARD OF EDUCATION in elections and then HOLD THOSE ELECTED OFFICIALS ACCOUNTABLE for the both the COSTS of the schools as well as the success or failure of the schools, in CHICAGO THE MAYOR APPOINTS THE BOE! Then when the Mayor won't let any of his appointees raise taxes to give schools the funds needed for success the "game" of finger pointed and blame goes full tilt. Meanwhile the Mayor sends his own kids to one of the most costly private schools in the region and gets all puffed up if asked why CPS schools aren't good enough for his own kids! THIS SEVERALLY HURTS CPS!

Very good point. What happens in Chicago and some mixed income suburbs is the affluent and middle class parents send their kids to private schools, and thus have no "stake" in the public school system. When you have no stake in the public school system, you don't particularly want your taxes to go up to fund it, especially when your own budget is being whacked by private school tuition.

The whole system needs to be overhauled, like for example a "tax swap" that lowers property taxes and raises state income taxes so that the schools can be funded by the state versus through property taxes based on need for resources (basically we'd reverse the present status of the highest income communities getting the most funding and the lowest income getting the least). Of course, do we trust the state to properly manage this? LOL! That's a whole separate topic but if we want to raise scores of low income schools, something radical is going to have to be done! That's the point.

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by BRU67

Very good point. What happens in Chicago and some mixed income suburbs is the affluent and middle class parents send their kids to private schools, and thus have no "stake" in the public school system. When you have no stake in the public school system, you don't particularly want your taxes to go up to fund it, especially when your own budget is being whacked by private school tuition.

The whole system needs to be overhauled, like for example a "tax swap" that lowers property taxes and raises state income taxes so that the schools can be funded by the state versus through property taxes based on need for resources (basically we'd reverse the present status of the highest income communities getting the most funding and the lowest income getting the least). Of course, do we trust the state to properly manage this? LOL! That's a whole separate topic but if we want to raise scores of low income schools, something radical is going to have to be done! That's the point.

My guess is the wealthy will never allow this to happen as the high RE taxes where they live help keep out the poors.

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by BRU67

The charter schools tried that and it erupted into a huge scandal. It was widely decried as cruel. Check out the Trib and Sun Times over the past couple of weeks.

I don't understand this attitude at all. But if I were in charge, the "problem kids" in any CPS school would be sent to a combination boarding school/work camp at the first sign of gang membership. It would be expensive, but probably no more than our prision-industrial complex. I have no idea why we continue to allow this class of CPS students to hold our schools, and really our whole city, hostage.

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by Lookout Kid

I don't understand this attitude at all. But if I were in charge, the "problem kids" in any CPS school would be sent to a combination boarding school/work camp at the first sign of gang membership. It would be expensive, but probably no more than our prision-industrial complex. I have no idea why we continue to allow this class of CPS students to hold our schools, and really our whole city, hostage.

I'm definitely all for it.