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To be fair, though, too, this girl probably isn't attempting or claiming to be a non-conformist, do you think? I wasn't there, obviously, and I don't know this particular girl, but from what I know of people who talk and think like that in "hipster" scenes in Chicago and elsewhere, I would bet that if she were totally honest (and articulate enough to express it), she would concede that that social scene is actually almost as narrow and restrictive and herd-minded as any other. I doubt that avoiding conformity was really a goal of hers or her peers.
I wasn't talking about her being the non conformist or whatever, it just kind of seemed ridiculous how they're seen and how someone wants to be like that, when she is not like that in the first place. Like she wants to be that cool, but in a way that's forced, and not necessarily her, just so others can see her as cool.
I think a lot of young people do that no matter what group it is, but to hear it verbalized like she did kind of made me chuckle for a second.
LOL, so true. I was standing outside of a bar in Wicker Park yesterday waiting on my gf's friends to come out, and I couldn't help but laugh at this conversation going on. It basically was this young girl (like 21 or 22) talking with her friends. It kind of went like this.
"I just don't feel cool enough to hang out in Logan Square. I mean I look around, and I see all these cool people and don't feel like I"m worthy enough. Like they're sooo hip. I just look at them and say man you are so cool, I'm just not worthy. I wish I was as cool as you."
She was completely serious too. I laughed a little, but felt kind of sad for her. A lot of those people are very, very conformist without even realizing it.
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Originally Posted by marothisu
I wasn't talking about her being the non conformist or whatever, it just kind of seemed ridiculous how they're seen and how someone wants to be like that, when she is not like that in the first place. Like she wants to be that cool, but in a way that's forced, and not necessarily her, just so others can see her as cool.
I think a lot of young people do that no matter what group it is, but to hear it verbalized like she did kind of made me chuckle for a second.
Well, you said that you "felt kind of sad for her" because she and her scene are "very, very conformist without even realizing it." And I'm saying that I'll bet she does realize it, even if she couldn't put it into words.
Also, don't you think that the whole dynamic of conformity vs. non-conformity, and trying to be part of some scene or another or not is very different in our society for women than it is for men? It seems to me that for males, there are genuine cultural benefits to both attempting to conform and not attempting to conform, which makes it a complex choice, and explains why many or most of us as men end up doing some of both. I think there are far fewer cultural incentives for females to truly be non-conformists (separate from affecting the false guise of non-conformity), which is why far fewer of them do it.
Well, you said that you "felt kind of sad for her" because she is "very, very conformist without even realizing it." And I'm saying that I'll bet she does realize it, even if she couldn't put it into words.
Also, don't you think that the whole dynamic of conformity vs. non-conformity, and trying to be part of some scene or another or not is very different in our society for women than it is for men? It seems to me that for males, there are genuine cultural benefits to both attempting to conform and not attempting to conform, which makes it a complex choice, and explains why many or most of us as men end up doing some of both. I think there are far fewer cultural incentives for females to truly be non-conformists (separate from affecting the false guise of non-conformity), which is why far fewer of them do it.
I can see how you inferred that by what I said, but it's now what I meant. "A lot of those people are very, very conformist without even realizing it." I meant it as a conclusion of talking about the hipsters she is trying to be like, but at the same time she might be conforming a little bit, or wanting to for sure. Which is your decision of course.
Yes, I agree about the gender roles, but after a certain age for women, it becomes to matter less and less. You are probably going to see more women in their 40s and older not conforming to whatever than women between the ages of 15 and 30.
If a person is quiet happy about being a non-conformist then conformist don't bother them. But it appears our o.p. wants to be surrounded by non-conformist thus making our o.p. a conformist.
If a person is quiet happy about being a non-conformist then conformist don't bother them. But it appears our o.p. wants to be surrounded by non-conformist thus making our o.p. a conformist.
I don't think it's quite true ipso facto that if a person is "happy about being a non-conformist then conformists don't bother him." You may be confusing being a non-conformist with being a Zen Buddhist. There's nothing intrinsic about the definition of non-conformity that dictates any particular attitude towards conformity, other than simply not participating in it. Besides, the OP didn't exactly say that he wished to be "surrounded by non-conformists," and even if he did, that would not in and of itself thus make him a conformist.
Saying that non conformists have their own conformity is a superficial irony that's been masquerading as an original and profound insight at least as long as I've been around, I remember the hipsters of the 1950s being accused of the same thing.
What's important is that people are rejecting respectable Middle Class notions and mass culture; that's what makes one a non conformist in cultural terms. That people are often self conscious in this rejection doesn't make the rejection any less real.
Saying that non conformists have their own conformity is a superficial irony that's been masquerading as an original and profound insight at least as long as I've been around, I remember the hipsters of the 1950s being accused of the same thing.
What's important is that people are rejecting respectable Middle Class notions and mass culture; that's what makes one a non conformist in cultural terms. That people are often self conscious in this rejection doesn't make the rejection any less real.
Saying that non conformists have their own conformity is a superficial irony that's been masquerading as an original and profound insight at least as long as I've been around, I remember the hipsters of the 1950s being accused of the same thing.
What's important is that people are rejecting respectable Middle Class notions and mass culture; that's what makes one a non conformist in cultural terms. That people are often self conscious in this rejection doesn't make the rejection any less real.
I'm satisfied with my choice of Illinois for now because the people here have a lot of heart. I know the OP isn't looking for such things, but there are so many non-profits, social service organizations, advocacy groups that help people and they are established and they are strong. There is a safety net here that I did not find in Indiana or Ohio.
I think people who care and having a strong safety net are important. It's just that I've learned to be self-sufficient and not rely on assistance from whoever.
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Originally Posted by summer22
On the surface though, there are things that are not agreeable to me about Illinois people. They seem to be less open, aloof, less friendly, more serious, more distrustful, more interested in keeping to themselves than reaching out to others for conversation and friendship. Where I am I'm not seeing a lot of self-expression and free expression, I'm seeing a lot of conformity and maybe its timidity. They are not at ease with starting conversations and taking the next steps to keep a connection (such as, "you're cool. we have to hang out. let's get a beer sometime. let me know when you're free.")
You really hit the nail on the head here. I think this is what I'm having the biggest problem with here. My concern is that this will make it difficult to rebuild a social life.
Much of the reason for this behavior is not immediately obvious to someone who didn't go to school here. Around here, many people, especially in K-12 schools and universities, are not accepting of people who are different. Anyone who doesn't fit in is going to learn to be very careful about who they open up to and what they reveal about themselves. Since fitting in is defined relatively narrowly here, this includes many if not most people. I just figured this was normal until I started spending time in other places where people were much more open and willing to meet new people.
I also know what it's like to spend much of one's free time in another city where the social life is easier. When I lived in NYC, after most of my friends moved away, I ended up spending a lot of time in Philly. It was surprising how much easier it was to make friends there compared to either NYC or Chicago.
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Originally Posted by summer22
Chet, I completely agree! Something went wrong with the college-age kids starting around 2008 or 2009. ... But the contrast between the good ones and the unsociable ones is like night and day. And there are very few good ones.
I've generally had good experiences with current and recent college students. That said, the students one meets while not in school aren't going to be representative. It's the more interesting ones who choose to be involved in activities off campus that attract a range of ages. Conversely, the obnoxious ones stick out more.
@chet everett: I do think it has a negative effect on their attitudes to know that it's going to be very difficult to build a career after graduation. This is understandable. I think they're actually doing a good job of handling this reality for the most part. And not all college students and recent grads are hipsters.
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Originally Posted by summer22
To the OP: I'm curious about your top 5 places on the East Coast that you felt you belonged. NYC and DC/Maryland have been intriguing to me. I would live in NJ where its cheaper if I was to move to the NYC area. Pennsylvania seems interesting but I have little knowledge about it, really.
NYC is great if you can afford Manhattan or possibly very specific parts of the outer boroughs which have good access to Manhattan. Queens is a good choice if you're intent on living in NYC but can't afford Manhattan. The Bronx is not as bad as people think and actually has some really nice areas that are a relatively bargain.
New Jersey is really not any cheaper than Queens. That said, it's noticeably more friendly than NYC. Newark is underrated; it actually has a few nice neighborhoods.
I actually prefer Philly to the NYC tri-state area, possibly even if money is no object. Philly is very friendly. The central core is like a mini-Manhattan where almost anyone can fit in and do their own thing.
I've also been to DC and Boston but didn't spend enough time in either to assess the social life.
@lenniel and @Irishtom29: I didn't find it difficult to make friends in Philly, NYC or Montreal. I enjoyed spending time in these cities and living in the last two. Many of my friends, far from having "serious issues", were high-quality people. Many went to top universities and/or had great careers.
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Originally Posted by tompope
IAmEverywhere, I can relate to and empathize with a lot of what you wrote, but just to clarify a couple of points, what exactly do you mean when you say you feel "uncomfortable" in most of Chicagoland, and particularly in some of the trendiest neighborhoods like Lincoln Park, Lake View, Wicker Park and Bucktown?
It's just a general sense that I don't fit into the overall social fabric of the neighborhoods. I'll go to these neighborhoods if I have a reason. I also feel like an outsider looking in.
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Originally Posted by tompope
Also, more broadly speaking, I'm sure you know this, but my experience has been that if one is truly "individualistic and non-conformist," by definition it's unlikely that you'll ever find a substantial community of like-minded people for you to relate to and make friends with in any particular geographic location. One of the main reasons why people become conformists in the first place is to make it easier to establish at least superficial social connections with strangers, at least within the group to which they're conforming.
(Also relating to @Chicago3rd's question) I don't need to find people who are exactly like me. What I do need is to be accepted without putting on a completely false face. In my experience, being a phony just doesn't work. I tried to fit in with the more mainstream crowd, and it just didn't work.
I've also noticed that people become even more calcified after age 30 or so. Fortunately, I'm still open to new experiences and people. This might be why the people I can relate to skew younger.
Chicago's urban core is actually almost as densely populated as the Boston-Washington corridor. I don't think that's the issue.
@sfcambridge: I'm not scared. I'm going to make the best of my present situation, including being social. It's just that I'm trying to make a conscious choice about where to focus my job search.
I do spend time in Hyde Park. Incidentally, about 40% of Northwestern undergraduates are in fraternities or sororities. That's actually a higher percentage than the rest of the Big Ten schools. Regardless, there are some really interesting people at Northwestern and in Evanston, and not all are independents.
@MassVt: I'm temporarily living with family. They're moving, and I'm trying to help them with that. My contract in NYC ended. The firm had talked about hiring me, but they probably couldn't afford it. My lease then ended, and I would have moved out of that apartment even if staying in NYC.
Money is tight, but not so much that I can't afford $10 to attend a social event or to drive into the city.
@marothisu: I do go to other neighborhoods, but am not averse to going to the right places in those neighborhoods.
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