Conceal and Carry in Chicago (Oregon, Virginia: day care, theater, living in)

[ChiNaan]

Very well said, by Damian Baldet:


And what is this fantasy? What is this fantasy that makes us think, as a nation, we need to have guns?

I know the fantasy. I know it because I grew up with guns. I know it because I had my own gun when I was sixteen years old. My Dad had a .357 revolver and he got me a little .22 caliber pistol. He kept them on the top shelf in his closet, each in a padded case, with the cylinder and clip placed neatly, safely beside them. We'd go shooting at the gun range. We'd try for accuracy and speed. We spent some of our best hours together in the stifling little room breathing gunsmoke. After, we'd come home and clean the guns and talk and browse gun magazines and chat.

Eventually, though, the conversation would turn to delicious 'what ifs?'

"What if someone is trying to break in?"
"What if someone has already broken in?"
"What if someone has broken in and they've found the guns?"
"What if they have knife?"
"What if they have their own gun?"

Invariably, the scenarios became more and more baroque, with multiple attackers and heroic risks and clever ruses that got us to the closet and put the familiar weight of our own guns in our steady hands. Then all hell would break loose in our minds, the wallpaper shredded, the furniture blown to bits, fear and doubt nowhere to be found. The stories always concluded with my Dad and me standing victorious over a field of faceless victims, each lying dead, each undoubtedly deserving of their fate.

Our fantasies, though, never entertained the reality - that more often than not, a wielded gun will end up the hands of the attacker or, as we've witnessed now another heartbreaking time, in the hands of those we never intended to hold them.

But the fantasy is always there:

Your family is in danger. It's you against them. They drag your kids out of bed. They tie them up. They drag your wife to the garage and close the door. They're about to unleash Hell. Only they didn't count on you and your 9 millimeter, which somehow ends up in your hand and which you unload in a righteous hailstorm of searing lead that also somehow avoids each of your family members.

You're in your car in a bad neighborhood. Suddenly your door is yanked open. Your kids are in the back in their car seats. Hands on your jacket, you're being dragged out. But not before your fingers close around the handle of the Glock you keep by your left thigh. A second later, it's painfully clear that they ****ed with the wrong guy.

Or the war is coming. Everyone knows that. And every one of us will have a shot at our John Wayne moment. We just need a gun. Or a couple. We'll keep it in the safe, under lock and key or combination. Ignore the wife's concerns that somehow the kids will figure it out. They know who's boss around here. You've told them to never touch that safe. That cabinet. That padded case. And they never would because you've got your house in order.

It's a right. America was carved by strength of will out of nothing. We are the rugged individuals, the mavericks, the lone wolves. We need that pistol at our side because when the **** goes down, it'll be the American left standing, a wisp of smoke trailing from his red hot barrel.

But, from a raised and confirmed gun enthusiast, hear this:

It. Is. Fantasy.

Your house will, most likely, not be invaded. Your car will, most likely, never be jacked. The zombies or Russians or Chinese or Martians are, most likely, never coming. What is much more likely is that your guns will end up in the hands or your kids, or their friends (who come over when you're at work and who aren't as well-raised as your kids). And if not your guns, then it'll be your neighbor's guns your neighbor's kids - your neighbor, who was on the fence about owning a gun, but he knows you do so he figured, 'why the hell not?' He needs a new hobby and Walmart is having a sale. He's got his own fantasies, after all.

Gun ownership, I know, is essentially about preparing for the worst. But while you set the scene and lay the props for some fantasy that never materializes, the worst does indeed come.

It comes in the shape of Sandy Hook.

Gun Control.

Now.

Edit: Sorry for the bold and weird font. I copied and pasted, and the editor wouldn't let me deboldify it.

[chitownperson]

Originally Posted by jdiddy

I'm going to guess with west Germany on the list, those stats aren't from last year. But the general point stands.

The stats actually are from last year, but Germany was some how noted as West Germany. The stats in the US are pretty shocking for an industrialised country.

[chitownperson]

Originally Posted by J. Lundegaard

I feel sorry for anyone who feels the need to wear seat belts. What a sad way to go through life, in fear of getting into a car accident.

I feel sorry for anyone who feels the need to keep smoke detectors and fire extinguishers in their house. What a sad way to go through life, in fear of a fire starting and being roasted alive.

I feel sorry for a female nurse who works at a hospital late at night in a bad neighborhood and carries pepper spray for protection. What a sad way to go through life, in fear of getting attacked or sexually assaulted.

I feel sorry for any young and healthy person who feels the need to buy life insurance to protect their family. What a sad way to go through life, in fear of dying at an early age even though it's statistically unlikely.

If I were these people who had these fears and took precautions against them, I would just move to some other place where these types of problems don't exist. Who wants to be scared of their own shadow all the time?

I feel sorry for children that are massacred in school because they live in a country that allows people to own guns.

[J. Lundegaard]

Originally Posted by chitownperson

I feel sorry for children that are massacred in school because they live in a country that allows people to own guns.

I feel sorry for the 30,000 people who die in car accidents because they live in a country that allows people to own cars.

[ChiNaan]

Originally Posted by J. Lundegaard

I feel sorry for the 30,000 people who die in car accidents because they live in a country that allows people to own cars.

Cars serve a significant purpose, for which we as a society have decided the loss of life resulting from their use is a worthwhile (though obviously unfortunate) trade-off. Guns serve no other purpose other than ending lives. That is their purpose. There is no overwhelming positive use to justify the death they cause as there is with cars.

For every person who is killed by a car, there are many people who live because a car got them to the hospital, or pharmacy, or grocery store, or got them to their jobs so they could provide themselves with food and shelter, etc. If there were many people who were saved by guns for each person killed by a gun, you would have a valid comparison, but it's simply not the case. For every person who saves themselves or another with a gun, there are many who are killed by a gun. It's just not even remotely close to being a favorable ratio, and most of the developed world recognizes this.

I'm pretty sure you know all of this to be true and are just being obtuse, but if for some reason you really don't see the difference, I'm not sure what else we can do to help you.

[chitownperson]

Originally Posted by J. Lundegaard

I feel sorry for the 30,000 people who die in car accidents because they live in a country that allows people to own cars.

I see the difference between the tools of transportation that cause accidents, and tool of destruction that cause massacres, are not unsubtle enough for you.

ChiNaan, you are wasting your breath trying to discuse this in logical terms, as posters spewing rhetoric such as "cars and guns are the same" are merely parotting the party line of the typical gun nut thats already made up their minds. It's the fallback protocol they use when faced with rational argument that runs counter to their need to own and carry weapons that have the potential to massacre many people in the span of a few minutes.

We need better regulations on driving, and we need to ban guns.

[rparz]

Originally Posted by chitownperson

I see the difference between the tools of transportation that cause accidents, and tool of destruction that cause massacres, are not subtle enough for you.

In the hands of the wrong people, everyday objects become deadly. Just because there's a chance I could kill someone with the steak knife in my drawer, should we outlaw knives? Are there enough restrictions on their purchase?

Guns don't kill people, people do.

[J. Lundegaard]

Originally Posted by ChiNaan

Cars serve a significant purpose, for which we as a society have decided the unfortunate loss of life resulting from their use is a worthwhile trade-off. Guns serve no other purpose other than ending lives. That is their purpose. If you honestly don't see the fundamental difference here, I'm not sure we can help you.

Well, I don't need your help as gun control and firearms and their role in our society are topics I've given a lot of thought to.

I was responding to two points. The first was the commenter who felt sorry for anyone who wants to legally carry a gun for protection. People take a lot of precautions against statistically unlikely events. When people do that in other circumstances, we don’t call them crazy or feel sorry for them. If a gun owner does it, they are crazy or scared of their own shadow. I don't agree with that assessment and that was the point I was trying to make.

The other point I was trying to make is that simply because a thing causes deaths does not mean we should outright ban the thing. If that's the case, cars and cigarettes should be banned immediately. Just think of the lives we could save. If a thing is involved in the death of U.S. citizens, there are steps we can take to reduce the risk of the thing while still protecting the freedom of other people to use that thing.

You say "society have decided the unfortunate loss of life resulting from their use is a worthwhile trade-off." I agree with you. But our country has also made a similar decision with regard to guns. This idea is enshrined in the Second Amendment. You can disagree with it and says whatever benefits come from guns simply aren't worth their costs. But in that case you should just be honest and say that you recommend repealing the Second Amendment and banning all guns.

Also, there are several reasons for having guns other than just "ending lives." Self-defense (preserving innocent lives), hunting, and target shooting are three that come to mind. There is also a more philosophical reason based on the notion that an armed populace protects against a tyrannical government. These are four legitimate reasons to allow firearms in modern U.S. society instead of resorting to a blanket ban of them, which is what chitownperson's comment advocated.

[rparz]

I'll never give up my guns, and I've never been involved in or have any history of mental instability. You'll get them from me when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.
How far are you willing to go to take them?

[ChiNaan]

Originally Posted by rparz

In the hands of the wrong people, everyday objects become deadly. Just because there's a chance I could kill someone with the steak knife in my drawer, should we outlaw knives?

Apparently you need this to be repeated:

There is a difference between a tool whose purpose is to kill, and a tool with constructive purposes that is sometimes used to kill.

Got it? No? Read it again, until you do. Thanks.

If the guy in Connecticut had been using a knife, there would not be 20 dead children. You know this. I know this. We all know this. Your point is completely invalid.