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Old 01-04-2013, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Cody, WY
10,420 posts, read 14,513,602 times
Reputation: 22014

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiNaan View Post
Gun death rates and murder rates are two very different things. Gun death rates include accidents, a very small number (under 2000), suicide, and justifiable shootings by police and civilians. When people have more guns more bad guys die; that's the way it should be. Both murder rates and accidental death rates have been plummeting for years. The murder rate has been going down since the time states began to recognize the right to bear arms.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:56 AM
 
1,002 posts, read 1,773,911 times
Reputation: 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago South Sider View Post
Money is money, whether it comes from guns or somewhere else. That isn't going to change.
Where and how you get you money can vary greatly, so even though "money is money", how you make you money can have positive or negative consequences... Dealing in guns is NOT the same as selling cupcakes, no matter how equally green the money is.
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Old 01-05-2013, 01:43 AM
 
1,002 posts, read 1,773,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy in Wyoming View Post
If guns increase murder and strong gun laws reduce it how come the entire state of Wyoming has had between 8 and 18 murders per year for the past ten years. Chicago has more than six times our population so since they have strict guns laws as opposed to our very relaxed laws why do they have five hundred murders? If they had our murder rate they'd never have more than one hundred per year, often far fewer.

Nothing is banned or restricted in Wyoming and parents determine at what age their children should have guns. We don't need permits to buy, possess, or carry open, concealed, or in vehicles.
As state many times before, gun bans only work if they're nation wide. There is no point to banning guns in Chicago if people can go to a suburb and buy a gun, or if some "legal" owner sells a criminal a gun (which happens a lot). The only way to stop that is a national ban.

500, or 100, or 18 etc are still too many. The goal should be "0". Society is in contestant transition, which is why we have different cities with different social problem. Cities change, for better of worse, and that fact alone makes national gun ownership a problem, because cities and their futures are unpredictable... Throwing guns into the mix with complex social problems is and has been a recipe for disaster, so Wyoming may be fine today, but its hard to say what it will be like 50, or even 100 years from now.

You always hear the argument that "people kill people" or "its society that needs to be fixed, not guns" etc... and there is thruth that we need to fix society, but the fact is that guns allow people to kill losts of people very easily, which makes for very volatile situations. This makes guns a very real societal problem, because people should not have the ability simply pull a trigger and kill losts of people... This allows for a whole host of social problems to be expressed in ways that should never be expressed.
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Old 01-05-2013, 01:50 AM
 
1,002 posts, read 1,773,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy in Wyoming View Post
Gun death rates and murder rates are two very different things. Gun death rates include accidents, a very small number (under 2000), suicide, and justifiable shootings by police and civilians. When people have more guns more bad guys die; that's the way it should be. Both murder rates and accidental death rates have been plummeting for years. The murder rate has been going down since the time states began to recognize the right to bear arms.
The UK put a gun ban into effect after the Dunblane school massacre in Scotland, and gun crime has seen a significant drop since the ban, plus there has not been a school shooting to date post ban. So, gun bans DO reduce gun deaths and gun crimes.

There are many other factors that play into why murder rates have been going down nationwide. There are also examples of US cities that have high rates of gun crime and deaths with relaxed gun laws.
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:10 AM
 
Location: Cody, WY
10,420 posts, read 14,513,602 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chitownperson View Post
The UK put a gun ban into effect after the Dunblane school massacre in Scotland, and gun crime has seen a significant drop since the ban, plus there has not been a school shooting to date post ban. So, gun bans DO reduce gun deaths and gun crimes.
There has been no statistically significant drop or increase in the murder rate in either England and Wales or Scotland, particularly not in Scotland which has the second highest murder rate in Europe. Ther is no way to compare UK rates to the US because the UK does not include voluntary manslaughter which the US does in murder rates. I could find no rates of voluntary manslaughter for the UK; this method certainly paints a more pleasant but less accurate picture. Additionally, the rules of self-defense are different from most or all US states. But I never mentioned the UK. The US is not the UK.

Murder rate - crime statistics - UK Crime - Murder UK

Murder rate rose 5% last year | UK news | The Guardian

Quote:
Originally Posted by chitownperson View Post
There are many other factors that play into why murder rates have been going down nationwide. There are also examples of US cities that have high rates of gun crime and deaths with relaxed gun laws.
This is correct but there are no instances of murder or violent crime in general going up after the passage of legislation recognizing Second Amendment rights in any city or state. It's a fact that criminals commit crimes and there is no policy on anything which will prevent this. I should think that you'd wish to lower the rate of violent crime from whatever its previous level was in any given area regardless of rate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chitownperson View Post
Where and how you get you money can vary greatly, so even though "money is money", how you make you money can have positive or negative consequences... Dealing in guns is NOT the same as selling cupcakes, no matter how equally green the money is.
Too many cupcakes can at least contribute to heart disease; a gun can save a life even without firing a shot. Dare I even mention alcohol or tobacco?
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:49 AM
 
1,002 posts, read 1,773,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy in Wyoming View Post
There has been no statistically significant drop or increase in the murder rate in either England and Wales or Scotland, particularly not in Scotland which has the second highest murder rate in Europe. Ther is no way to compare UK rates to the US because the UK does not include voluntary manslaughter which the US does in murder rates. I could find no rates of voluntary manslaughter for the UK; this method certainly paints a more pleasant but less accurate picture. Additionally, the rules of self-defense are different from most or all US states. But I never mentioned the UK. The US is not the UK.

Murder rate - crime statistics - UK Crime - Murder UK

Murder rate rose 5% last year | UK news | The Guardian



This is correct but there are no instances of murder or violent crime in general going up after the passage of legislation recognizing Second Amendment rights in any city or state. It's a fact that criminals commit crimes and there is no policy on anything which will prevent this. I should think that you'd wish to lower the rate of violent crime from whatever its previous level was in any given area regardless of rate.



Too many cupcakes can at least contribute to heart disease; a gun can save a life even without firing a shot. Dare I even mention alcohol or tobacco?
You are talking about murder, I'm talking about "gun" related deaths and shootings, which dropped dramatically. Like I said, there has not been a single shooting in a school in the UK since the ban, post Dunblane. This shows that gun bans DO in fact reduce gun related crimes... Something which pro gun people will not acknowledge.

It is correct that criminals will commit crimes regardless, but guns allow them to kill with much greater ease. The change in legislation in one city without showing a rise in crime means nothing as its easy enough for criminals to gain access to guns from other cities... Hence the need for a nation wide ban.

Are you really trying to compare the the consequences of eating too many cupcakes to something that can be taken into a school and massacre a group of kids?
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
2,186 posts, read 2,906,026 times
Reputation: 1807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy in Wyoming View Post
Gun death rates and murder rates are two very different things.
Ask a person dead from a gunshot wound if they care which category they're classified under.

Last edited by Plzeň; 01-05-2013 at 01:01 PM..
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:53 PM
 
410 posts, read 487,836 times
Reputation: 357
I, for one, do not support the ban of guns and I stand by the NRA for wanting to protect the 2nd Amendment. If a crazed sociopath wants to hurt people he'll find a way - if he can't get his hands on a gun then he'll resort to other vehicles that will do damage.

Here's the odd thing: cars kill people. And guess who drives those cars? People. Are we going to go all knee-jerk and let our "feelings" overwhelm us and put the automobile industry in a negative light? I don't see that happening here in this forum. Geez people.
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Old 01-05-2013, 01:01 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
2,186 posts, read 2,906,026 times
Reputation: 1807
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSunshineKid View Post
Here's the odd thing: cars kill people.
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Old 01-05-2013, 01:15 PM
 
410 posts, read 487,836 times
Reputation: 357
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plzeň View Post
Yea, like this thread.
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