A move from Sydney to Chicago - worth it? (Addison: for sale, real estate)
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I've been ghosting on these forums for a few months now, and I thought I'd take the plunge
My wife and I are looking to move to the States from Australia. I'm a HS mathematics teacher, she's a veterinary surgeon. I'm 31 and she's 28.
On my last visit, I spent a week in Chicago, staying in the Loop, and I really liked it. Visiting, however, is not the same as living... though we were there in Jan/Feb of 2011, which I understand was a good representation of the Chicago winter.
Now we're going on a lengthy road tour of the US in October, and I was wondering whether I should spend a while in Chicago to look for work. In particular, I was wondering whether it ticks a few boxes: if it does, I could persuade my wife to concentrate there instead of NYC.
* Nightlife: are there regions that stay alive after midnight during the week? How extensive are they? Is it possible to get good coffee and food at that time? Is it sophisticated or dominated by head-kicking drunkards? The areas I saw around the Loop and River North in 2011 were a little dead, which I put down to the cold
* Bookstores: are they plentiful, well stocked and open past, say, six?
* Can I expect to live there without a car? I was impressed with Metra and the L, but do they adequately serve most of the city? The map looks a little sparse.
* Are there places with an abundance of street life -- that is, a high density of food vendors, street-level commerce, cafes and so on
* Could I expect to score tickets to a play, recital or musical in the morning for a performance that night? I saw a musical back in 2011 on a weeknight, in the middle of winter, which was encouraging... but pickings were thin
* Is it simpler to buy a unit there than in NYC? I've been browsing real estate pages for both cities and delving into published regulations, and frankly, my head hurts.
We come from Sydney, which is head-poundingly expensive. Looking at prices, Chicago seems far cheaper. On the other hand, there might be hidden costs. In Sydney, we're slugged ~$10800 pa in rates, water levies and building fees. The place is a 750 sqft, 2br apartment 3 km from the CBD, worth about $650 000. (Values in $A). Am I looking at similar kinds of extra cost in Chicago?
* Lastly, if there's anybody in the know about schools around Chicago, I was wondering where might be the best place to start looking. I've investigated certification in Illinois and I think I'd be OK to get past that. Are the suburban schools easier to get into? Are schools likely to accept unsolicited resumes, or would I be best to seek out advertised positions? Is it worth visiting schools to meet principals, who I know are always busy?
This has turned into a very long piece. If you've made it this far, thanks so much for reading!
Hello,
I haven't been to Australia so I can't personally compare Sydney to Chicago, but I have lived here for 18 years and have loved it. There are some consistent problems, but I think it is extremely livable. If you're not scared off by the weather, I would definitely consider it.
Nightlife: The city isn't a 24 hour city like New York. In my opinion that is a good thing. There are no shortage of neighborhoods with nightlife every night though......Lake View, Lincoln Park, Wicker Park, The Gold Coast/River North, West Loop etc. are all areas with extensive nightlife. There are some people that fit the description of "head-kickers" but they're usually pretty easy to avoid. These areas have a lot of street life as well, but the winter weather does limit the extent of street life.
I don't know if bookstores are plentiful anymore. Kindle seems to have done a number on a lot of bookstores around here, but I bet you could find some. The Chicago Public Library has branches in every neighborhood although the hours do vary.
As for the car situation, I encorage anyone who can to live without a car in this town to do it. It helps to live near a CTA station if you don't have a car (obviously). I haven't had a car in three years and I only miss it once a month or so for random things (like going to a certain restaurant in the suburbs).
I think it would be difficult to score tickets In the Dearborn St. Theater district because that is where most of the Broadway stuff comes. As for smaller venues, the city is packed with smaller theaters and improv type stuff. I don't think it would be hard to get tix for those.
It is simpler to buy here for one reason........it is soooooooo much CHEAPER than New York. As for the regulation for mortgage qualification, that is an federal issue so anywhere you try to buy in the states there will be a lot of newer and stricter regulation. This was because of the real estate bubble popping and all of the sub-prime mortgages that went belly-up into foreclosure. I can't really think of any specific Chicago-related regulation (and I just bought something in August). There are property taxes here (which depend on the size and type of place you live). There are water costs which are directly related to your water usage. There are general utilities. When you are looking for a house/condo you have to do an inspection which can run roughly from 300-800 depending upon the size and style of your house/condo. There is also an appraisal which can run anywhere from 400-600 (usually). In general, I think you are going to find things to be cheaper as it seems like the Australian Dollar is pretty strong and I've heard and read that Sydney is quite expensive.
As for a job teaching, it really depends on what you want to do. The Chicago Public Schools have 490,000 kids (roughly). There are many different types of schools. I don't think it would be too hard to get hired at a charter school if you are qualified. The Chicago Public Schools are pretty wild though. There are some dangerous neighborhoods in this city and the problems in those neighborhoods follow the kids into the schools unfortunately. If you want to teach in the city, I would look into subbing first so you can see if you really want the challenge of teaching in this city. The suburbs are kind of their own individual worlds.....so each one will be different. I have taught in the past and can tell you that no matter the district it always helpd to know someone. Since you don't, I would sub and get to know the different schools of the district and to get yourself known.
Hope this helps. Good Luck. And welcome to Illinois if you decide to follow through.
Well my first thought. having just shoveled my driveway of a out of 5cm of snow that fell overnight and warming back up to room temp from an air temp of about -8c is -- YOU ARE NUTS -- go to beach!
That said I've been to Australia and know that Sydney is.crazy costly -- but the lifestyle struck me as cross between Southern California / Washingron DC with healthy doses of London and Hong Kong so it is completely inline with other "seats of power"... Maybe money goes farther when you venture deeper to the interior?
That said I did work with a man who was a teacher from England and his wife was a surgeon. He made a salary at a private high school and his wife was a surgeon at Loyola on some kind of specialty training / exchange / research program. He also coached soccer and was well like by the students and faculty. It is far easier to do that at a private school but salary is modest ...
If wife's income from veterinary surgery is six figures US that might allow you to have lifestyle a little less confined than in Sydney but our social programs are not exactly stellar and you will have to figure out the whom messy tax / immigration / work status thing ...
Parts of Chicago like Lincoln Park are quite lively but also costy. You can perhaps get by w/o car if you find employment nearby, no idea how difficult that is for those coming from abroad...
Btw CPS is in terrible shape. Even if you could jump through hoops to get ferried in reasonable time frame I would not be hopeful about landing a job in a functional school. The various private schools would almost certainly be much easier route to pursue. If you also coach soccer or swimming of similar sport it is not unreasonable to expect about $40000 US/ yr. using wife make 3x that (which may or may not be possible for vetinary as I know it is very competitive field with many grads from all parts of country eager to enter small animal practices in region as Chicago pet owners are generally well off...) that is far above median household earnings...
1) Bookstores: Yes there are some good ones, with good hours. You have the big box types, which have been dying, but there are still a number of Barnes & Nobles around. There are also some good used bookstores, such as Myopic in Bucktown, which stays open to 11pm all week, and Bookworks on Clark in Wrigleyville. Those are just the two I have experience with.
2) No car: Depends where you live and work. I need a car because I work in a suburb that is not very public transportation-friendly. My fiance does not need a car.
3) Street life: When you come back, get out of the Loop and even River North more. There are a bundle of neighborhoods with extensive strips of shops, restaurants, bars, etc. In some areas, like the 6 Corners in Bucktown/Wicker Park and the area of Clark/Broadway between Fullerton and Addison (which is a pretty good distance), it is almost one store/restaurant/bar after another. I've also found that the smaller spots that aren't necessarily right on a dense commercial block tend to be some of my favorites.
4) Weekday nightlife: Chicago is not like New York in terms of the 24-hour-ness of things. But the non-business neighborhoods don't exactly shut down either.
I've been ghosting on these forums for a few months now, and I thought I'd take the plunge
My wife and I are looking to move to the States from Australia. I'm a HS mathematics teacher, she's a veterinary surgeon. I'm 31 and she's 28.
Welcome! So, one thing I am going to say before I answer your questions, I'll say one thing. I have some coworkers who moved to Sydney and Melbourne who have talked about how things close early.
So here's the deal before we start. In Chicago, the bars at a minimum stay open until 2am. On the weekends, there are bars that stay open until 3am, 4am, and even 5am. Things usually don't close here before 7pm unless it's a Sunday. Some stores will, but it's fairly rare. Sundays are usually the early days. Some stores even close on Sundays, but most are open, but just close an hour or two earlier than normal. For restautants and bars too, Thursday through Saturday are the late days.
When did you come too? It sounds like you might have been here during a cold month. The city really comes alive in the summer. I have friends who travel all over the world every year and absolutely refuse to travel anywhere during the summer because of how pleasant it usually is, and how alive it is here.
I aplogize but this is going to be a long response
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* Nightlife: are there regions that stay alive after midnight during the week? How extensive are they? Is it possible to get good coffee and food at that time? Is it sophisticated or dominated by head-kicking drunkards? The areas I saw around the Loop and River North in 2011 were a little dead, which I put down to the cold
Almost every bar stays open until after midnight. As reference before, 2am for most bars at a minimum. 3am-5am on weekends for some bars in the city.
Unfortunately, staying in the Loop wouldn't give you a good idea of the city. It's the central business district, so after about 6:30pm, most of the Loop is utterly boring and lifeless because a lot of the area is just office space and lunch-based "fast" food. River North can be boring in a few spots, but it's real lively in other spots easily even in cold months.
The type of people drinking depends on where you are. There are areas where it's a bunch of people who are more upper class and then there's areas where it's in the middle, then areas of total frat boy/"bro" type of drinking. Here's the thing with Chicago. There are bars EVERYWHERE. Places you wouldn't even expect have bars. This city is a big partying/nightlife city. The nightlife isn't "crazy" everywhere, but there are bars everywhere. if you can't find at least 5-10 bars you like drinking at in this city, then most people will think there's probably something wrong with you.
Here's a few areas.
* River North - Scene centered around Hubbard Street. Places are all packed and the crowd is usually 24+ years old with some 21-23 mixed in. Most places at least give the upscale-ish vibe with some lower scale mixed in (not much). The clubs start a little NW of Hubbard street.
* Wicker Park - Probably my favorite area for nightlife. 25+ years old on average, some smaller ages mixed in. The 6 Corners area (Damen-North-Milwaukee...Blue Line train stop there too) is teeming with nightlife especially in the summer. Good mix of places. On one part you have one of the most upscale cocktail lounge in the city (Violet Hour) and then 200 feet away you have a music venue that hosts hard rock shows, then you have nice restaurants next to that, followed by a 5am bar that plays punk/thrash metal. It's a great mix of places at both ends of the spectrum. Area is great. Some of the crowd tends to be more artistic in this area but there are definitely some yuppies there too. Great mix.
* Lakeview - Depends on where you are in Lakeview. There is Wrigleyville, home of Wrigley Field, where the Chicago Cubs play of Major League Baseball (Addison Red Line Stop). The bars around here are very "bro" like and American Sports Bars. Go a few blocks East and you hit Boystown, which is the gay section of town. Go a few blocks East of there and you find a ton of restaurants and some bars. More laid back. Around the Belmont train stop south of there, same type of deal..some frat bars down the street, but a mix of some others. North of Wrigley Field you have things like SmartBar, which is a legitimate House music club.
Tons and tons of restaurants, shops, and bars here just like the areas mentioned above.
* Lincoln Park - A more upscale version of Lakeview and more yuppie. DePaul University is there (Fullerton train stop), so around there are college/frat-like bars. As you branch out from there you get a more eclectic mix. This area has the stereotype of being all frat/"bro" like but it's not true. Hell, there's even a dark gothic-industrial house club there.
Tons and tons of restaurants, shops, and bars here again.
* Bucktown - Next to Wicker Park. More subdued and there's a little mix of things. Has life but not as crazy as Wicker Park.
* Logan Square - Some really great things here and growing. The crowd is more artistic and hipster-like. Some great areas here.
* Gold Coast - North of River North. A lot of more upscale stuff and you will really see some of the celebs/wealthy people here too (along with River North). There's an area there called Viagra Triangle because of the number of rich older bachelors who go there and the women who gold dig. It's not uncommon to see Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Rolls Royce, etc here. Funny thing is right near there is Division Street which is home to a bunch of ****ty 4am college bars. Night and day in the matter of a block. Division is pretty hopping though.
* Ukrainian Village/Noble Square - Similar-ish to Logan Square..
* Pilsen, Bridgeport - I'd put these in the same category as Ukrainian Village/Noble Square, and Logan Square with slightly less nightlife (maybe on par with UK Village).
*South Loop - like a boring River North (growing area of town).
* West Loop - Kind of like South Loop, but with more building stock variance and a little more to do. Actually, some of the top chefs have opened restaurants here..some very famous chefs.
Other areas might include Lincoln Square which is really laid back and has a lot of good restaurants and bars, just not as much as a Lakeview which it's close to (North Center is between the two both figuratively and physically too). Uptown, even Chinatown to the south has bars. Edgewater, Rogers Park, etc. Old Town next to the Gold Coast is full of restaurants/bars for a few blocks too. There are honestly bars and nightlife everywhere here, except most of the Loop. There is also Devon, which doesn't have a lot of bars, but is Little India/Pakistan.
The thing is that you did stay in a boring part of town, The Loop. My suggestion is to come during a warmer month (April - October) and get out in the neighborhoods I mentioned above starting from the top. You will see what I'm talking about..
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* Bookstores: are they plentiful, well stocked and open past, say, six?
There's many bookstores in the city and I'd wager most are open past even 8pm. One of my favorites is Myopic Books in Wicker Park. They have tonnnns of books, very independent and the place reminds me of the 1960s film rendition of Fahrenheit 451 with the woman's house secretly full of books. They are open until 11pm every day too. AND they're next door to a great record store if you're into that.
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* Can I expect to live there without a car? I was impressed with Metra and the L, but do they adequately serve most of the city? The map looks a little sparse.
Totally. It all depends on where you live. If you live in the city center then very possible. Actually it's possible to live anywhere here without a car. There are also tons of buses here. I have lived without a car here the entire time and really rarely need it. I have a lot of friends in the same situation. Some of my friends do own cars, but almost never use them. In fact, some of my friends even sold their cars because of how infrequently they were using them.
The Metra is mostly for the suburbs, with some city stops mixed in (most of them are in the south part of the city). The suburbs also have a bus system called PACE.
The public transit here is 2nd best in the US only to NYC. It might look sparse on the map, but it's not that bad at all. It can get you to a ton of places. If you use buses, then it can get you almost anywhere in the city (time is the only thing of course).
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* Are there places with an abundance of street life -- that is, a high density of food vendors, street-level commerce, cafes and so on
Yes, although I'd say street food vendors is behind in Chicago. We just recently started letting food trucks be able to cook on board, but there's weird location rules they have to follow. As far as pedestrian life and food/cafes, yes it's everywhere. Loop is not a good way to determine it. River North has a lot of restaurants, but not cafes and what not. For those types of things, go to Lakeview, Lincoln Park, Wicker Park, etc. There's some in the Gold Coast too actually. One of my favorite areas is bounded by State, Rush, and Bellevue. There is a pedestrian park in the middle and it's surrounded by restaurants with outdoor seating. There's a coffee/gelato stand in the middle and it's one of the most European parts of the city. This area stays real active in the summers until even 3am and 4am with people hanging out there.
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* Could I expect to score tickets to a play, recital or musical in the morning for a performance that night? I saw a musical back in 2011 on a weeknight, in the middle of winter, which was encouraging... but pickings were thin
You should be able to. It depends on the type of entertainment. For example, you aren't going to find ticket scalpers for the Civic Opera usually or the Steppenwolf Theater (maybe sometimes).
If you're looking for a rock, jazz, etc concert though then it's an almost guarantee you could show up 30 minutes before the show and buy a ticket from a ticket scalper.
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We come from Sydney, which is head-poundingly expensive. Looking at prices, Chicago seems far cheaper. On the other hand, there might be hidden costs. In Sydney, we're slugged ~$10800 pa in rates, water levies and building fees. The place is a 750 sqft, 2br apartment 3 km from the CBD, worth about $650 000. (Values in $A). Am I looking at similar kinds of extra cost in Chicago?
Chicago is on average way cheaper than NYC and Sydney. There are expensive areas of Chicago and that's usually parts of River North, Streeterville (East of River North/Gold Coast and next to the lake), and Gold Coast. Lincoln Park and parts of Lakeview can be expensive too but you can find bargains there.
$650,000 for a 750 sq foot 2 bedroom apartment, 3 km from the CBD? Absolutely. Here's a few examples:
New York City? Good luck with that one. Not even close for the same type of location and housing stock. You'd be paying probably over $1 million for these places in NYC.
So here's my suggestion. It looks like you came in the winter. Winter is way deader. Summer comes alive here. Come between April and October, but the best time is to come June - August. There's also a huge lake here that almost makes you feel like it's an ocean. There's beaches here, bike and running paths,etc. TONS of people utilize that. I also suggest taking a river architecture cruise. Most importantly though, get out of River North. Go to the other neighborhoods. Chicago is a neighborhood city. Downtown is alright but things outside of it are WAY better. WAY better.
Also, there's a good amount of music festivals here in the summer...mainly catered to rock or electronica (very much a growing scene). Lollapalooza is here which gets huge names and is in Grant Park every summer. Big, big, big time festival. This video kind of shows you the energy around that (including a pre show at the Congress Theater, one of the most well known rock/electronica venues in town). There's pretty much at least one festival in town going on in the summer every weekend
Here's also a video from Anthony Bourdain. It doesn't show the upper class side of things, but it shows a side of Chicago most tourists do not even see. Places are not all like this. He just focused on the lower things, except a few things in here are definitely not lower. Most places here are dive bars, but it does show a few neighborhoods off.
Last edited by marothisu; 01-25-2013 at 10:31 AM..
Pros for Chicago:
Income taxes are considerably lower. State taxes are lower and no city income tax.
Property costs are considerably lower. Compared to Manhattan, Chicago is 1/4 to 1/3 the cost to buy (in other words, Manhattan property is 3-4 times as expensive as Chicago). Compared to Brooklyn, Chicago is 1/3 to 2/3 the cost. Rents are probably in the 2-3 times as expensive. The pay costs comparable to Chicago in New York, you'd be living in remote parts of Queens, Staten Island, or the far suburbs.
Pace is fast enough to be interesting, but not bone-grindingly demanding just to stay afloat. A lot of this has to do with cost - the costs in New York make EVERYTHING more competitive, which means constantly working at the full steam to maintain. Chicago has a lot of opportunity, but for most jobs and social areas it's not quite as competitive as New York, which leaves more time to actually enjoy living.
It's a better overall value - once you account for all costs, I think even living in prime areas of Chicago you get about 80% of the New York lifestyle for about 65% of the cost.
Pros for New York:
"More" of everything.
Most careers can go further in New York - if you want them to badly enough. As a teacher, that may not vary as much between Chicago and New York, but it might for a veterinary surgeon.
Better transit. Chicago's transit is very capable, and many people can do without a car, but in the U.S. New York is still the gold standard when it comes to usability and coverage of transit.
So, basically, Chicago is a great city. I love it even though I didn't grow up here and I make enough that I could probably afford to live in Manhattan if I really wanted to. I would enjoy some of the "more" that New York offers, but the insane pace in many careers there would get old quickly. I like the pace in Chicago - fast enough to get a lot done and accomplish things, but not so fast as to drive me to an early grave.
Ultimately you have to decide if the "more" New York has is worth the cost both short-term and long-term. I will say that I host a lot of foreign visitors in Chicago, including a lot from Sydney. And they all love Chicago, especially in the summer. They also love New York. So I think you can probably be happy in either city and it's a decision about pace and cost.
^ Agreed with the above. NYC is a great city and it has more, definitely, but the pace is a lot faster and more stressful on average. It's also much more expensive to live in NYC. It's utterly surprising for a big city with big life, big downtown, etc how cheap Chicago is compared to other cities like it in the world.
The cost is the big thing. As others said, if you're going to live in Manhattan or something you're going to need a LOT of money. Housing especially is crazy there. You'd more than likely live in an outer area away from Manhattan, while in Chicago you can still live in the heart of the action and still pay less than either NYC option.
Chicago has nice large 2 bedroom updated apartments in awesome areas next to transit for $1,200 a month.
A two bedroom apartment in the same happening area of NYC is going to run you $3,000-$4,000 or more if you want equivilent of what you can get in Chicago. Then you have NYC income taxes, fees to get your apartment, etc.
I love NYC, and thought about moving there (I could handle it), but you can do SO much more with the extra money you have in Chicago that isn't forked over in rent, etc. I live as I like, go on vacation to Europe a lot, go out to eat, buy whatever and don't have to worry much at all. If I was making the same $72,000 in NYC I'd probably be making more, but even if it was $85,000 that's not going to get me much in Manhattan.
I took my BF to Manhattan for his first time and he immediately said he wanted to move there just to say he lived there for a bit. Then we visited his good friend who makes $100,000 at a law firm (they're both around 24 years old). His friend worked about 65 hours a week including weekends, and her $100,000 allowed her to live in lower Manhattan, but her apartment was TINY and DISGUSTING and she shared it with a random roommate. We were absolutely shocked at how small and dated it was...for her making 6 digits.
I love NYC and go there often, but Chicago is lucky that it still packs the punch of entertainment and options, but there's the breathing space and you don't have hoards of people all coming here to "make it" like you do in NYC. Less competition, less media, less image to live up to, less people stuffing themselves into the city just to say they're here. Not that NYC doesn't have a TON of options and isn't an amazing city. Chicago just lets you relax and live a little more of your life the way you want. NYC you have to plan everything out a bit more to make ends meet. Chicago you just go with the flow and see where life takes you.
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