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ChiTown is sort of weird to me as it is obviously a big city, but feels very deifferent than Manhattan because it is far less dense in most places. The avenues are generally quite wide, though the sidewalks can certainly be packed. There are lots of surface parking lots, which decreases the dense feel to me, some even in the Loop or close-by portions of the South Loop. And many of the most populous residential neighborhoods have alleys, which adds to the spacious feeling because they make for less density. To me, even neighborhoods like South Loop and River North feel sort of empty.
That said, the most high-rise, dense, vibrant, "urban" feeling areas in ChiTown that I think might satisfy what OP is looking for would be the Gold Coast and the Loop. Obviously many other great neighborhoods in the city, but in terms of what he/she wants, I think it's these two.
This is great advise. Not to nit pick, but Istanbul is not really larger than NYC. Istanbul limits cover an area that is more than 6x larger than NYC limits, but only 1.6x larger population. NYC also has higher peak densities than Istanbul, and the NYC metro area is much larger. Istanbul is larger in the way San Antonio is larger than Boston.
Again, the above is nitpicking, your advise is spot on.
Well since you brought it up, I thought I'd offer a friendly thing here. You are incorrect on what you say here. I've spent about a month in Istanbul in the last year and am quite familiar with it. Istanbul is actually larger than NYC proper. In fact, it's the second largest city proper in the world officially. Only Shanghai is larger. The official population is 12-13 million, but the unofficial population is actually between 16 and 20 million. The reason for this is because many of the people who live in Istanbul originally from small towns will register during their census with their original small towns instead of Istanbul so their "hometowns" can get more funding. Even without that, the city proper is larger than NYC city proper. NYC proper officially is between 8 and 9 million while Istanbul proper is between 12 and 13 million.
Now with the density. Manhattan may have a greater peak density in some very small physical areas due to large clusters of high rises, but Istanbul's densest areas are actually denser than NYC's densest areas (such as Manhattan) where there's a large clustering of people (not just a few high rises) believe it or not. Most people unfamiliar with Istanbul just look at the overall density numbers, but that doesn't tell the whole story. The problem is that Istanbul city is the same as region, meaning there's a bunch of open land that gets factored into it outside of the actual city. If you look at the neighborhoods, you'll see very dense areas. In reality, it's one of the densest areas on earth, but it doesn't get recognized as such because of all the open land that's counted outside of it where almost nobody lives in.
Manhattan has a population of 1.6 million at 70,517.9 per sq mile in 22.96 sq miles. Istanbul actually has 8 districts of density more than Manhattan's average.
* GÜNGÖREN | 318,545 people | 2.77 sq miles | 115,066.7/sq mi
* GAZİOSMANPAŞA | 464,109 people | 4.51 sq miles | 102,977/sq mi
* BAHÇELİEVLER | 571,711 people | 6.4 sq miles | 89,382.5/sq mi
* BAĞCILAR | 719,267 people | 8.65 sq miles | 83,164.9/sq mi
* Fatih | 455,498 people | 6.15 sq miles | 74,057/sq mi
* BAYRAMPAŞA | 272,196 people | 3.68 sq miles | 73,897.8/sq mi
* KAĞITHANE | 418,229 people | 5.73 sq miles | 73,041.7 sq mi
* BEYOĞLU | 247,256 people | 3.46 sq miles | 71,447.1/sq mi
Combined, these make up a population of 3,466,811 which are living in a population density of higher than the entire average of Manhattan (over double Manhattan's population). If you take the peak dense areas and make it equal to close to 22.96 sq miles, it would be the areas of GÃœNGÖREN, GAZİOSMANPAŞA, BAHÇELİEVLER, and BAĞCILAR. Combined they have an area of 22.33 sq miles which is very close to Manhattan. However, they have a combined population of 2,073,632 which is almost 500,000 more people than all of Manhattan in 0.63 less sq miles. The average density of that is 92,863 per sq mile, which is over 20,000 per sq mile more than all of Manhattan. Manhattan would basically have to add 513,044 people to be as dense as the densest areas of Istanbul which are about equal to the physical land area of Manhattan.
Now, going back to the original point which I think we'll agree on. You don't need high rises/skyscrapers to feel like a big and vibrant city. Some of these areas of Istanbul do have residential buildings over 20 or 30 stories, but there's not many and they're still denser in population than all of Manhattan which is full of high rises. Food for thought. Someone with a lot of experience in world cities will know that most of the dense, vibrant cities of the world are not actually full of high rises. Some are, but many are not.
Last edited by marothisu; 11-07-2013 at 11:56 AM..
What are the neighborhoods where all the buildings are huge and the streets are crowded and all that stuff? I want neighborhoods that really feel like a big city.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marothisu
If you want bustling streets downtown, then it's various parts of River North, Gold Coast, and the areas around Michigan Avenue in Streeterville. The Loop around State Street and Michigan Ave/Millennium Park can be that too. The others parts of the Loop are only like that M-W during business hours at certain times since it's the CBD. I guess here and there parts of the South and West Loop too.
I should note this too, that to feel like a big city, you don't need tall buildings. At least to me. I've traveled to many other cities in the world, a lot larger than Chicago and larger than NYC. They're big feeling because of their density and street vibrancy, not because of how tall their buildings are. Istanbul for example is over twice as large as NYC, yet it doesn't have tons of high rises, but it feels large because of how dense it is and how many people are out on the streets all day in many parts. There are many world cities that don't have tons of skyscrapers but they still feel big and dense.
It should be noted that while Chicago has many high rises, that only 4-5% of its population lives "downtown." The area of Lake View, for example, has about 15,000 more residents than the entire area of Gold Coast, Streeterville, River North, and Old Town combined (3 of these 4 is considered "downtown" and has many high rises/skyscrapers). There are high rises along the lake in Lake View, but much of it is low rise. Various areas of there can be just as vibrant on the street as "downtown." (especially in some areas at night). This is not the only place, there's others.
I think it's an extreme common misconception that a large percentage of Chicagoans live downtown. In reality it's a pretty small percentage and while it is vibrant, there are other parts of town where you can feel street vibrancy too.
You made a great point here. Thanks so much. Yeah actually I dont exactly want Skycrapers and High-Rises I want it where it is bustling and tons of people walking around. I also want it where theres lots of cool shops and things to peek into.
You made a great point here. Thanks so much. Yeah actually I dont exactly want Skycrapers and High-Rises I want it where it is bustling and tons of people walking around. I also want it where theres lots of cool shops and things to peek into.
Certainly they do exist downtown, and especially even more when it's nice out (i.e. summertime). Some other parts of town it can be bustling in is various areas of LakeView, Wicker Park, Lincoln Park, etc. If you're going to check it out for that, I really recommend the summertime. Some areas are very vibrant, but when it's 20 degrees out, people are still out but not nearly as many are just hanging outside for obvious reasons.
Thanks man! My definition of "downtown" is the area full of high rises and bustling streets. Also with lots of shops and cool stuff to see.
That's where it gets complicated here in Chicago. For example, there are two neighborhoods, called Edgewater and Hyde Park, that have high-rises, lots of shops, and bustling streets, but no one would call them "downtown" because they're ~8 miles away from the central business district. You can also find many areas with quality street life and stuff to do that don't have high-rises (or not many). A few parts have high rises but aren't very lively.
Basically, there isn't a clear divide in spaces here that you might think there is, where there's an area that's lots of fun and the rest of the city is a place with wide tree-lined streets where people quietly raise families or whatever. There is definitely a downtown area in the oldest part of the city where transit converges and many Chicagoans work in offices or cater to tourists, but your definition here can loosely fit maybe two dozen neighborhoods. Everyone likes having interesting streets in their neighborhood and a lot of areas in Chicago (perhaps most?) have enough of a population to support these.
Well since you brought it up, I thought I'd offer a friendly thing here. You are incorrect on what you say here. I've spent about a month in Istanbul in the last year and am quite familiar with it. Istanbul is actually larger than NYC proper. In fact, it's the second largest city proper in the world officially. Only Shanghai is larger. The official population is 12-13 million, but the unofficial population is actually between 16 and 20 million. The reason for this is because many of the people who live in Istanbul originally from small towns will register during their census with their original small towns instead of Istanbul so their "hometowns" can get more funding. Even without that, the city proper is larger than NYC city proper. NYC proper officially is between 8 and 9 million while Istanbul proper is between 12 and 13 million.
Now with the density. Manhattan may have a greater peak density in some very small physical areas due to large clusters of high rises, but Istanbul's densest areas are actually denser than NYC's densest areas (such as Manhattan) where there's a large clustering of people (not just a few high rises) believe it or not. Most people unfamiliar with Istanbul just look at the overall density numbers, but that doesn't tell the whole story. The problem is that Istanbul city is the same as region, meaning there's a bunch of open land that gets factored into it outside of the actual city. If you look at the neighborhoods, you'll see very dense areas. In reality, it's one of the densest areas on earth, but it doesn't get recognized as such because of all the open land that's counted outside of it where almost nobody lives in.
Manhattan has a population of 1.6 million at 70,517.9 per sq mile in 22.96 sq miles. Istanbul actually has 8 districts of density more than Manhattan's average.
* GÜNGÖREN | 318,545 people | 2.77 sq miles | 115,066.7/sq mi
* GAZİOSMANPAŞA | 464,109 people | 4.51 sq miles | 102,977/sq mi
* BAHÇELİEVLER | 571,711 people | 6.4 sq miles | 89,382.5/sq mi
* BAĞCILAR | 719,267 people | 8.65 sq miles | 83,164.9/sq mi
* Fatih | 455,498 people | 6.15 sq miles | 74,057/sq mi
* BAYRAMPAŞA | 272,196 people | 3.68 sq miles | 73,897.8/sq mi
* KAĞITHANE | 418,229 people | 5.73 sq miles | 73,041.7 sq mi
* BEYOĞLU | 247,256 people | 3.46 sq miles | 71,447.1/sq mi
Combined, these make up a population of 3,466,811 which are living in a population density of higher than the entire average of Manhattan (over double Manhattan's population). If you take the peak dense areas and make it equal to close to 22.96 sq miles, it would be the areas of GÃœNGÖREN, GAZİOSMANPAŞA, BAHÇELİEVLER, and BAĞCILAR. Combined they have an area of 22.33 sq miles which is very close to Manhattan. However, they have a combined population of 2,073,632 which is almost 500,000 more people than all of Manhattan in 0.63 less sq miles. The average density of that is 92,863 per sq mile, which is over 20,000 per sq mile more than all of Manhattan. Manhattan would basically have to add 513,044 people to be as dense as the densest areas of Istanbul which are about equal to the physical land area of Manhattan.
Now, going back to the original point which I think we'll agree on. You don't need high rises/skyscrapers to feel like a big and vibrant city. Some of these areas of Istanbul do have residential buildings over 20 or 30 stories, but there's not many and they're still denser in population than all of Manhattan which is full of high rises. Food for thought. Someone with a lot of experience in world cities will know that most of the dense, vibrant cities of the world are not actually full of high rises. Some are, but many are not.
How do you figure manhattan only has a population density of 70k?
How do you figure manhattan only has a population density of 70k?
There are official numbers for both population and land area, and it's simple division. Or you can go to the US Census Dept for the number since Manhattan is the same thing as New York County, NY. 22.96 sq miles of land area and 1,619,090 people (as of 2012). That comes out to 70,517.857 people per sq mile. Now, back in 1910, Manhattan's population peaked at 2.3 million, which would have put its density back then at about 101,000 per sq mile, but today there's 1.6 million people there. I should also note again about Istanbul that unofficial population. It's actually pretty true - a handful of million people unaccounted for officially there. The city is ridiculously packed. I wish I would have gotten a picture from the airplane the last time I left. It perfectly showed from the air just how dense the city is but I was so in awe of it that I forgot. Shots like this are the closest thing I have:
Another interesting factoid if you put the two cities head to head. There's a mainly pedestrian street in Istanbul called Istiklal Caddesi that sees about 3 million visitors per day on an average weekend. Times Square sees about 1.6 million (http://www.visit2istanbul.com/wp-con...n-Istanbul.jpg). A lot of people from the region and central Europe regard the city as the best they'll ever get, so they have no problems fitting 10 to a room in houses/apartments in some areas.
Last edited by marothisu; 11-08-2013 at 06:51 AM..
There are official numbers for both population and land area, and it's simple division. Or you can go to the US Census Dept for the number since Manhattan is the same thing as New York County, NY. 22.96 sq miles of land area and 1,619,090 people (as of 2012). That comes out to 70,517.857 people per sq mile. Now, back in 1910, Manhattan's population peaked at 2.3 million, which would have put its density back then at about 101,000 per sq mile, but today there's 1.6 million people there. I should also note again about Istanbul that unofficial population. It's actually pretty true - a handful of million people unaccounted for officially there. The city is ridiculously packed. I wish I would have gotten a picture from the airplane the last time I left. It perfectly showed from the air just how dense the city is but I was so in awe of it that I forgot. Shots like this are the closest thing I have:
Another interesting factoid if you put the two cities head to head. There's a mainly pedestrian street in Istanbul called Istiklal Caddesi that sees about 3 million visitors per day on an average weekend. Times Square sees about 1.6 million (http://www.visit2istanbul.com/wp-con...n-Istanbul.jpg). A lot of people from the region and central Europe regard the city as the best they'll ever get, so they have no problems fitting 10 to a room in houses/apartments in some areas.
Since the OP's question has been answered, I will reply to this:
First off, I have been to Istanbul twice, most recently in late 2011, so I am somewhat familiar.
Secondly, I don't see what good taking census population and dividing by area proves (especially for a location like Manhattan), as there is virtually no hour of the day where Manhattan is only populated by residents.
Manhattan, for all intents and purposes is a city of 4 million people:
Study Document: http://wagner.nyu.edu/files/rudincen..._manhattan.pdf
Mitchell L. Moss and Carson Qing, Rudin Center for Transportation Policy and Management
Wagner School of Public Service New York University
March, 2012
=======================================
[SIZE=4]Manhattan: A city of 4 million[/SIZE]
Manhattan’s daytime population is approximately 3.94 million; the census-defined daytime population omits almost one-fourth of the total, or nearly 800,000 people. The daytime population consists of approximately 1.61 million commuting workers, 1.46 million local residents, 404,000 out-of-town visitors, 374,000 local day-trip visitors, 17,000 hospital patients, and 70,000 commuting students.
52% of Manhattan’s Census-defined daytime population consists of individuals who do not live in Manhattan and commute there for work. Every day, 1.63 million commuters enter Manhattan for work, while 132,000 Manhattan residents commute elsewhere for work
The weekend daytime population of Manhattan is approximately 2.9 million people, with 565,000 commuting workers and 1.54 million local residents; the weekday night time population is at most 2.05 million, suggesting that there could be to up to 471,000 more people in Manhattan at night consisting of late night workers, "night-trip" visitors from the outer boroughs and suburbs, hospital patients, and overnight visitors, in addition to the 1.58 million local residents.
The Upper East side, according to the Census, is the most densley populated neighborhood in NYC, with a density of ~125K per sq mile, followed by the Upper West Side with a density of ~110K. Stevie Wonder can see that, in reality, these are not the densest parts of Manhattan.
Midtown Manhattan, which is by far, the largest CBD in the World, has a density of ~500K per sq mile M-F.
To bring this back to the Istanbul comparison, Istanbul is a HUGE MEGA CITY, but I don't see how, all things considered it is bigger than NYC. NYC is a region of 21 million people, much larger than Istanbul's region. Istanbul has more people in it's arbitrary borders than NYC does in it's 6x smaller arbitrary borders, but I don't see how that proves anything.
Let me ask you this: do you consider Istanbul to be a bigger city than Tokyo?
Chicago looks like a really interesting city. From what Ive seen some of the neighborhoods look more like small towns? Is it really like this or is that just what it looks like?
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