Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The people of Chicago lack the political will to improve the public school system, for whatever reason. Once you could just send your kid to the neighborhood school and not worry about it, we didn't need selective enrollment, charter schools and all that bull****. The schools were good and could be again if the citizenry demanded it. But they don't.
There was also a more extensive and affordable alternative education network in the form of parochial schools. That network is greatly diminished, the quality of education at many of them is questionable, and they're not as affordable as when the teaching positions were staffed by nuns who got paid little more than room and board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Side Brandon
This is why we need school vouchers. Look at schools like St. Angela's in Austin and Providence St. Mel's in East Garfield Park. Providence St. Mel's sends every kid to college. Remarkable when you consider how impoverished that neighborhood is.
While there's an obvious need for school reform to give kids stuck in sh*tty schools a way out of them, I fear vouchers would be the educational equivalent of Section 8: great for the recipients, not so great for the communities that absorb them in numbers, and the jury still out on whether it's a really a net benefit for society at large.
Anyway, been pointing this out periodically in this forum, and taken some shots for it along the way. Interesting to see one of the persons aiming some of those shots at me be the one to start this thread. Still a tall order for the city, especially when suburbia continues to have the strong pull of "home" for many who had once intended to move from them into the city for good.
Anyway, been pointing this out periodically in this forum, and taken some shots for it along the way. Interesting to see one of the persons aiming some of those shots at me be the one to start this thread. No easy solutions, especially when suburbia has the strong pull of "home" for many who had once intended to move from them into the city for good.
You've pointed what out periodically? I've never taken shots at you/anyone for pointing out the obvious that CPS isn't a selling point for young middle and upper-class families.
The tricky part here is to what extent the middle class is responsible for CPS and its success.
People talk about the middle class as if it behaves as a homogenous beast, but in my experience that's simply not the case.
The fellow I was speaking to isn't leaving Chicago solely due to CPS, but he definitely mentioned it as a factor. He doesn't live in the boundaries of one of the "turned around" schools like Bell or Audubon, and I think the uncertainty is very, very frustrating. I personally think I just lucked out, I don't take my very positive experience with CPS as anything else, our school is doing well in spite of the larger system, not because of it.
btw, I don't think CPS was ever considered a great school system as far as neighborhood schools and academics, but safety concerns were probably minimal compared to the past 25 or 30 years. Certainly very, very, very few kids were getting shot while walking to and from school from 1850 - 1950.
The Blackboard Jungle is considered to be a fairly accurate snapshot of urban schools back in the day. Big city public schools have always been considered rowdy, and parochial ones have always been the place your kid gets his head screwed on straight, or else he or she will get smacked with a ruler or otherwise severely disciplined.
Big city public schools are tough everywhere because the middle-class has generally abandoned the cities, leaving the public schools with a high share of the poorest, most disadvantaged, dysfunctional kids -- something most suburban districts just don't have to deal with. So don't balme the city teacher unions, the administrators, the mayor, the state legislature, or any of the rest of the usual suspects. Blame the folks who could have made the schools better but cut and ran -- the middle-class.
Chicago certainly isn't unique in this. It's happened lots of places. And yes, a lot of the middle-class that left was a white middle class that did so because they didn't want to live around black people. It's pretty disingenuous to to claim "Oh, I don't care if they're black, as long as they keep the lawn mowed and have a job." We all know that's a lie. Most of this cohort is simply uncomfortable with black neighbors, no matter how nice they are or what they do for a living. Class is not the big issue. Race is. And again, I'm not picking on Chicago. This dynamic has played out in many other big cities, including my own.
Middle-class citizens are the backbone of any public school system, and the fewer of them, the worse the schools will be. And I know there are exceptions. Some black middle class people leave the cities and some white middle-class people will stay and fight for their neighborhood schools. But as a rule, when middle class people head for the 'burbs, the public schools in the city suffer. Let's at least be honest about why that happens.
The people of Chicago lack the political will to improve the public school system, for whatever reason. Once you could just send your kid to the neighborhood school and not worry about it, we didn't need selective enrollment, charter schools and all that bull****. The schools were good and could be again if the citizenry demanded it. But they don't.
I worked for an educational publishing company mainly doing Accounts Receivable work for ten years. Trying to collect money from CPS was really a grind. They would tell me their procedure (which I already knew). I would say "I have done that three times already with no results.". They would basically then say call the school and of course the person you needed to speak to was very seldom available. It was a "I don't care, because I am protected by a strong union even if I do nothing" attitude. This is a Democrat speaking, too...not a right wing person. Almost always had to call them as emails were seldom returned unlike most other districts.
I can imagine on the educational standpoint it would probably be the same way. It was far easier collecting from other large city districts like Dallas and even slightly easier from Los Angeles and New York.
It is also too bad people don't care as several other posters have mentioned. That can be the beginning of the end and it was not that long ago that Chicago was considered a great city.
I worked for an educational publishing company mainly doing Accounts Receivable work for ten years. Trying to collect money from CPS was really a grind. They would tell me their procedure (which I already knew). I would say "I have done that three times already with no results.". They would basically then say call the school and of course the person you needed to speak to was very seldom available. It was a "I don't care, because I am protected by a strong union even if I do nothing" attitude. This is a Democrat speaking, too...not a right wing person. Almost always had to call them as emails were seldom returned unlike most other districts.
I can imagine on the educational standpoint it would probably be the same way. It was far easier collecting from other large city districts like Dallas and even slightly easier from Los Angeles and New York.
It is also too bad people don't care as several other posters have mentioned. That can be the beginning of the end and it was not that long ago that Chicago was considered a great city.
Please read the above posts before injecting rather uninformed opinions.
I actually just wrote a paper on this for one of my classes. One of the better articles on the subject was Pauline Lipman's "Making the Global City, Making Inequality" from the University of Chicago. The article (published in 2002, so it may have changed) refers to the main power being held by the mayor's office since the passing of the 1995 Illinois State Legislature Chicago School Reform law. Under the new law, Daley ceased control of CPS and instituted a heavily standardized testing based curriculum.
From my essay (be gentle...its a working draft):
"Through her observations, Lipman notices the schools that tend to struggle more often "promote or reinforce a narrow focus on specific skills and on test-taking techniques" (391). However, school that encouraged independent thought, a "strong culture of literacy," and intellectually complex curriculum faired much better, even on standardized tests which the opposing schools emphasized (391). Her research very much mirrors the findings of Bloom's Taxonomy which places synthesis and evaluation of information far above strict memorization. She ties the research of education to the notion of being a "global city" together by saying "…educational disparities produced by retention and test-driven teaching are likely to deepen race and class inequalities in a world increasingly dominated by those who have access to the production and processing of knowledge" (395). The lack of beneficial investment in infrastructure among the poor neighborhoods of the city is creating an environment of have and have nots. As Richard Florida's article only talks about the benefits of abandoning the Fordist model, Lipman displays its costs to the laborer and the city's inability to provide new skills for the coming generations: "The new low-wage service and post-Fordist manufacturing jobs…require the flexibility to adapt to changing job requirements, and basic literacies in reading and math are essential to this learning"(404)."
Unfortunately, a lot of the solutions the author proposed need funding which these school generally don't have...
Last edited by thefallensrvnge; 11-11-2013 at 05:40 PM..
This is why we need school vouchers. Look at schools like St. Angela's in Austin and Providence St. Mel's in East Garfield Park. Providence St. Mel's sends every kid to college. Remarkable when you consider how impoverished that neighborhood is.
Well I guess the same could be said of Delasalle, Mt. Carmel, and until very recently St. Ignatius. It's remarkable the results they produce considering the neighborhoods those school are located.
It's not just CPS, it's also real estate options for familes... At some point my wife and I looked at our rapidly growing kids, and had a vision of how horrible it would be to live with two teenagers in our small condo, or in any condo at all for that matter. And we didn't like the city options where we could find a single family house we were comfortable with in a neighborhood we liked. We considered the bungalow belt, but saw little reason to choose a place like Jefferson Park over Oak Park, which is closer to the Loop, has better transit options, and more amenities than nearly every bungalow belt neighborhood in the city.
I think when we were 28 we still held the hope that we could afford a house in the core of Lincoln Square or North Center, but at some point we had to face the reality that these family-friendly upscale city neighborhoods were beyond our reach if we were going to buy a single-family house.
I don't have kids yet, but had basically the same thoughts.
CPS definitely did contribute to our decision though. Even though we don't have kids yet if we do I did not want to deal with CPS, vouchers, selective enrollment, etc. It honestly just seems like a big headache and one I could easily avoid by moving to the suburbs. The fact that we have a nicer house with a big yard on a beautiful block and can easily walk to the Metra to get downtown does not hurt, either.
I think it is a tough situation. If more middle class families stayed in Chicago then maybe the schools would improve. But, the schools are already good in many suburbs. So, these families are supposed to navigate a difficult school system and take a gamble on their kids' education so that in the future other families can benefit from good schools? I don't see that happening.
They would tell me their procedure (which I already knew). I would say "I have done that three times already with no results.". They would basically then say call the school and of course the person you needed to speak to was very seldom available. It was a "I don't care, because I am protected by a strong union even if I do nothing" attitude.
If you're calling a school to collect money you're talking to an administrator - and administrators in CPS are not unionized. If you're having a hard time getting them on the phone it's probably because they're busy, or the CPS head office hasn't given them the money to pay you so they're working on something they can actually accomplish instead of talking to you. From what I know of how CPS is run I'm actually kind of surprised that a publishing company would be calling schools directly for payment.
I have a hard time figuring out why anyone would work as a CPS administrator. The administrative staff at my daughter's school consists of three people. The principal is basically the CEO, CFO, HR department, PR/Ad agency, disciplinarian, and property manager. The Assistant principal is the curriculum coordinator, school nurse, fundraising director, community liaison, website director, enrollment manager, and truancy officer. The third person is basically a receptionist who is also in charge of security (they make considerably less than the other two). In my experience in the private sector most companies would have 6-8 people to do the jobs they do, and pay them more as well.
This is why we need school vouchers. Look at schools like St. Angela's in Austin and Providence St. Mel's in East Garfield Park. Providence St. Mel's sends every kid to college. Remarkable when you consider how impoverished that neighborhood is.
I don't want my taxes going to pay for an education in a religious school, no goddam way.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
