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^ The difference is that NYC is not just dense in Manhattan. There are parts of the Bronx that are denser than anything in Chicago and that includes downtown Chicago. So of course these sections where the density is 150,000 people per sq mile is going to be a lot more vibrant than a dense 40,000 people per sq mile part of Chicago, just naturally. I also think that some people in Chicago like to stay inside more than in areas like NYC. I don't know why, but it's just an observation.
And the bodega thing is more of an East Coast thing. There's some in Chicago, but not a ton right now. They're a more NYC and Philadelphia thing almost exclusively in the US. A few other east coast cities of course too, but not a lot of cities in the US have a lot of bodegas.
100% Agreed. While the person who posted the comment in which you are making the refuting argument against is probably a compassionate individual who like all others do not want to see rents become exorbitant; they are missing the point that in a neighborhood like Streeterville the fact that you can still find a studio for 1,500 is not surprising or demoralizing to me having been a part of the NYC hustle my entire life. I mean really, Streeterville rivals many Manhattan luxury neighborhoods in terms of amenities, cleanliness, and the proximity to the loop?! Come on now. If you can get a studio for 1,500 there in a global alpha city like Chicago, then good. I won't be doing it cause that ain't me, but it's better than some other places as far as their COL.
Yeah. I recently found out that you can get a studio in the John Hancock Center for around $1550. It's not Streeterville, but it's next door, and it's one of the most iconic skyscrapers in the city, so that tells you something about Chicago's prices versus NYC's. Chicago has a long way to go before prices become out of control like NYC's, and it frankly may never happen. Chicago's situation is simply different than NYC's.
Yeah. I recently found out that you can get a studio in the John Hancock Center for around $1550. It's not Streeterville, but it's next door, and it's one of most iconic skyscrapers in the city, so that tells you something about Chicago's prices versus NYC's. Chicago has a long way to go before prices become out of control like NYC's, and it frankly may never happen. Chicago's situation is simply different than NYC's.
Well, it won't happen in our lifetimes but prices are definitely rising as there is an uptick in construction, and a lot of the newer stuff being built or that has been built in the last few years is luxury. I remember when I was moving in 2009, I was looking at an almost new 1 bedroom place in Lakeshore East and it was $1450/month. Nowadays, it's closer to $2000/month. Is that still a steal compared to NYC? Absolutely, but a rise of about $100/year in rent over the last 5 years is a good amount. My friend's studio near the Viagra Triangle for a vintage building was $1100 in 2009 and today it's something like $1400 or $1500 for the same unit.
Price are still cheap compared to other cities though. You can also still get a pretty decent 1 bedroom in River North, Streeterville, Gold Coast area for under $300K too. My friends from other cities like NYC and SF are always absolutely shocked at how "cheap" Chicago is and always ask me why it's not more expensive.
Well, it won't happen in our lifetimes but prices are definitely rising as there is an uptick in construction, and a lot of the newer stuff being built or that has been built in the last few years is luxury. I remember when I was moving in 2009, I was looking at an almost new 1 bedroom place in Lakeshore East and it was $1450/month. Nowadays, it's closer to $2000/month. Is that still a steal compared to NYC? Absolutely, but a rise of about $100/year in rent over the last 5 years is a good amount. My friend's studio near the Viagra Triangle for a vintage building was $1100 in 2009 and today it's something like $1400 or $1500 for the same unit.
Price are still cheap compared to other cities though. You can also still get a pretty decent 1 bedroom in River North, Streeterville, Gold Coast area for under $300K too. My friends from other cities like NYC and SF are always absolutely shocked at how "cheap" Chicago is and always ask me why it's not more expensive.
There's a demand for downtown living in Chicago, whether it's Gold Coast, River North, the Loop, etc, and you're right, a lot of the new stuff being built is aimed at the luxury crowd. Are rents rising fairly quickly downtown? Yes. Are they rising in other popular neighborhoods in the city? Yes. Are they rising as fast? For the most part no, they aren't. For example, if I had renewed my one bedroom in Lakeview my rent would have gone up $40. Keep in mind this was an apartment that had all the utilities included in the rent as well. I'm currently splitting a two bedroom with a friend in the neighborhood for $1550 total, and, again, all the utilities are included. Not a bad deal if you ask me.
You're also quite right about prices in NYC versus Chicago. I've had two friends visit me who live in NYC, and both were shocked at how little I was paying a month for my apartment, and that there were any utilities included at all. One of them has been considering a move from NYC because he's spent his life there, and he told me that Chicago got added to his list of possible alternatives once he found that out.
Are they rising as fast? For the most part no, they aren't.
Completely depends on the neighborhood. Rents are rising pretty fast in the downtown area. You don't think that a rise in rent of over $500/month in 5 years is fast? That's pretty fast. In other areas, it's not nearly as fast. There may be a few other non downtown areas that are rising faster than others like Wicker Park. I agree that areas like Lakeview, while rents have risen, have not risen very fast.
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You're also quite right about prices in NYC versus Chicago. I've had two friends visit me who live in NYC, and both were shocked at how little I was paying a month for my apartment, and that there were any utilities included at all. One of them has been considering a move from NYC because he's spent his life there, and he told me that Chicago got added to his list of possible alternatives once he found that out.
Chicago has been seeing this in the last few years. People in cities like NYC and SF get sick of paying high rent and come to cities like Chicago. If the international crowd gets more wind of it then it could be interesting. I showed the real estate/rental prices downtown to this girl I'm dating who's originally from China and lives in NYC right now, and she was shocked. She started asking me whether she should buy a place in Chicago and told her family/friends about the prices.
Having recently visited the Bronx--a often ignored part of New York I feel--I was struck by the vibrancy. There were no abandoned apartments, lots of cop presence, lots of vibrant business activity. It really made me wonder why Chicago wasn't the same. Our "Bronx" is essentially Humboldt Park and, while improving, doesn't have a bodega on every corner, and you can still rent a studio in Humboldt in the $600-$700 range. My friend's sister rents an equivalent sized apartment in Hunts Point, Bronx for $1,100. The Bronx is more than 3X as densely populated as Chicago, which gives businesses, public works/services, and housing the demand it needs.
I love Chicago, but it simply doesn't have that demand. Despite being the beacon for many young urban professional midwesterns, Brooklyn (which has taken many of my friends) is nearly as populous as Chicago proper! Like many have said, New York has no room for growth. Chicago continues to lose population, now as many African Americans are moving out to the suburbs. We have much higher vacancy rates... even Latinos (the only race/ethnic group with a growing presence in Chicago) is growing far quicker from a percentage standpoint out in the burbs than in Chicago. My point being, as soon as most can afford it, they move out to the suburbs where there is usually better safety, better amenities, larger more modern homes, and overall a better area to raise children.
I live in NW Chicago. I'm a 28 year old carless "Millennial" who recently purchased my first home. Its a 19th century gut rehabbed 2-unit worker's cottage located on the border of Logan Square and Hermosa. I rent the upstairs 3-bed to my friends at a discount at $1,200 (most "condo" quality units in this area would go for $1,400-$1,500). A lot of my friends who are my age are beginning to have enough for a downpayment and are looking to purchase either 2-flats, investment properties, or single family detached homes, too. Just keep in mind, Millennials are officially 21-38 years old now as a generation. We're growing up, and "Generation Z' (0-20 years old) is a much smaller generation and won't be able to fill our shoes as Millennials move on to different lifestages.
I see a great desire among my friends and associates to buy spaces as close as possible to public transit that are still affordable, or I'm seeing some that are preparing to move to inner ring suburbs near public transit (Oak Park, Evanston) where they can buy a home near good public schools. Most aren't interested in condos, as we've all heard too many horror stories with the cheap quality of many of them and the difficultly to sell them. While most of my friends want to stay in Logan Square, they are thinking about Bridgeport, Pilsen, West Humboldt Park, East Garfield Park, Avondale, and Hermosa as possible attractive alternatives that are more affordable to purchase a home.
I really like the area I live in because it has a strong renters pool (mostly working class latino but also a growing group of young professionals and artist.) I see continued demand in the future for my 2-flat, which I intend to continue to own as I move into another dwelling probably 5 years from now.
While I was in awe of NYC, I love the fact that I can afford to buy a detach home here.... my home was ~$300K... even in the Bronx the cheapest multi units I could find were in the high $400K range.
I really, really liked a lot of the things that you said. And I'd like to say thank you as a fellow millennial for purchasing your first house in Chicago city proper. You are only 1 year older than me, and yet you have managed to become a home owner not to mention in a great world class city like Chicago. Coming from the most cocky dude on this forum, I envy you. I am from the Northeast, and I finished my last year of college in the terrible 2008-2009 recession. The cost of living even in NJ where I was is very inflated and IMHO not fair. I simply do not have the same savings that you do, flat out. Now that I am here I am seeing opportunities to build these savings again.
Maybe someday your children will get to walk to the bodega on every corner that you speak of. Perhaps when they are teenagers they will be able to save and stack their money instead of putting every dollar of it into a dilapidated first car and exuberant car insurance. Perhaps because of the density they will not need a vehicle and they will simply just walk or ride the El from place to place to meet with friends and loved ones. Perhaps they will have 30 or 40 friends within a 4 or 5 block radius. I sure wish I had those kinds of opportunities and choices. My father died when I was only 9 and we were a struggling single mother family, me being the only child. She could not afford to give me a car when I was 17. We stayed in the suburbs of Essex County NJ after he died for whatever reason. While there is very good public transit in the suburb where I'm from connecting to NYC, as far as using it to get back and forth to college was not practical. Not if you wanted to have a social life or a girlfriend anyway for that matter. My uncle felt sorry for me and gave me his 80s sports car (1986 300ZX) so I wouldn't be a total loser. My insurance was $500 a month at 17-18 (yeah that's Jersey for you) and I spent all of my savings on constantly repairing the car which was 20 years old and needed work. It sucked. I always struggled back then. Plus I was always getting tickets and ended up in a few accidents. Maybe if I were in a house like the one you just bought I would not have been plagued with such a situation. But I was in the suburbs, and who doesn't have a car right? Public transit is only for poor people right? Oh we got to get a gallon of milk? Fire up the Chevy. Going to the gym? Yep, where's my keys. SMH. Thank god people our age are starting to think in terms of sustainable living and a little common sense.
Yes, the Bronx is always a forgotten part of NYC but what you need to consider is the density in the northeast. As a Caucasian male, I rarely had any reason to goto the Bronx (well, the South Bronx anyway) for reasons involving work or play. However, sometimes in the summer I would take a nice walk through Mott Haven, Melrose, Port Morris after work off of the 4 train just to look at all the cool art deco brownstones. It is truly the only borough left in NYC that has that "old New York" feel that you just can't ever, ever replace no matter how much you dream and envision it. No matter what novel, movie, or TV show you watched that made you fall in love with a place, you cannot will a city's past back into existence. It is sad though. My mother was from Manhattan - Italian Harlem, specifically and described that whole place as a different world. Nowadays Italian Harlem sounds like an oxymoron, but, that area later became known as "El Bario" or "Spanish Harlem". My grandmother when I was a child would tell me stories about there being horses in the streets of Lower Manhattan, and growing up in Little Italy. She remembered sometimes, as a child there would be a poor person rattling through the trash on the ground floor of their tenement building. My great grandmother, from Italy, would call out the window in her broken English, "hold on! I'm gonna make you a sandwich" and she would quickly put it together, wrap it in foil and toss it down.
The reason the Bronx is often forgotten is because it is considered the least desired borough of NYC. Keep in mind, this mainly refers to the South Bronx, as the North Bronx can be very different and ironically does not have the same density you are speaking of. In fact in the North Bronx as you approach the line of Westchester County (as the Bronx is the only borough connected to the mainland United States), it can appear somewhat suburban. The reason the South Bronx is undesirable is because of what occurred (mainly) from 1970-1980. White flight at the time and landlord abandonment were so wicked that people, desperate, began torching down entire buildings in the hopes of getting a housing voucher or landlords doing it to collect insurance as these buildings became worthless and the entire neighborhood became Afro-American. The city simply could not keep up with the fires. At one point, the 41st precinct was dealing with over a dozen buildings a day being burned for years! Eventually they stopped bothering to investigate the fires. 22 census tracts lost 97% of their residents! During the decade 40% of the buildings in the South Bronx were burned, and the area was akin to a bombed out European city in WWII. Today the South Bronx contains some of the poorest congressional districts in the US, however - the area has now been largely rebuilt and very few torched out buildings still remain. I also find it so ironic that all New Yorkers must enter the South Bronx to attend Yankee Stadium, regardless of how they may trash talk and demean the borough. It reminds me of "The Eyes of Dr. TJ Eckleberg, looming over the Valley of Ashes in the Great Gatsby. Implying that no matter what class you were born of, everyone had to pass through the valley of ashes and the eyes represented God looking down and not being fooled by subject of class envy.
I find it interesting that you compare the Bronx to Humboldt Park. Not sure if this is accurate. One could argue that the equivalent of the Bronx in Chicago is the Wild 100s, or Englewood, as I feel Humboldt Park has some more desirability to it than that part of the Bronx. Then again, that could be East New York or Brownsville too.
I hope you have fun enjoying your new house. Congratulations.
Completely depends on the neighborhood. Rents are rising pretty fast in the downtown area. You don't think that a rise in rent of over $500/month in 5 years is fast? That's pretty fast. In other areas, it's not nearly as fast. There may be a few other non downtown areas that are rising faster than others like Wicker Park. I agree that areas like Lakeview, while rents have risen, have not risen very fast.
Chicago has been seeing this in the last few years. People in cities like NYC and SF get sick of paying high rent and come to cities like Chicago. If the international crowd gets more wind of it then it could be interesting. I showed the real estate/rental prices downtown to this girl I'm dating who's originally from China and lives in NYC right now, and she was shocked. She started asking me whether she should buy a place in Chicago and told her family/friends about the prices.
Perhaps this is a bit of a good thing? While I'd hate to see downtown become unaffordable maybe some other areas in the city (especially the Bungalow Belt and the South Side) will have an increased demand for housing, an influx of residents, and gain more desirability? ?
I find it beyond hilarious that instead of focusing on improving schools or preserving home ownership some of the posters seem overly concerned with "bodegas". Funny thing too is the closest thing that Chicago might have had to that sort of family owned business is very likely the rapidly disappearing little stores tucked in along regular residences. At one time these were pretty common in Lincoln Park. I used to get a nice meatball sandwich at a similar place in Bridgeport but it has closed.
I wonder if mainstream economists that study income inequality would have something to say about the shift to rent seeking housing options that seem to concentrate wealth among the already rich as the lower income strata are forced out in gentrification... Stiglitz: Why Inequality Matters and What Can Be Done About It | Next New Deal
Doubt bodegas will be compatible with $15 craft bourbon cocktails that seem a sign of faux affluence by those suckers that feed the rent seeking of the elite pushing higher property values...
While some of the prescriptions that mainstream economists offer for addressing income inequality seem worse than the problem (even more intrusive government regulation being high on such a list...) the fact the Illinois' politicians have benefited so much from the apathy and stupidity of the low information voters is nowhere more apparent than the entertainment oriented Bacchanalia of neighborhoods that have gentrified in the pattern of Wicker Park. One might hope that college educated young people might see the degree to which such policies have made Chicago more unequal. The hopeful part of me thinks such things could be reversed with appropriately responsible political leadership -- Stiglitz and Toward a Theory of the Rent-Seeking Society - Coordination Problem
I find it beyond hilarious that instead of focusing on improving schools or preserving home ownership some of the posters seem overly concerned with "bodegas".
Agreed - though more would be nice...it's not a big deal.
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Doubt bodegas will be compatible with $15 craft bourbon cocktails that seem a sign of faux affluence by those suckers that feed the rent seeking of the elite pushing higher property values...
I think you need to pay a visit to Manhattan more if you really believe this.Bodegas are not limited to the shady parts of NYC or anything. Go pay a visit to Angel's Share for some $20+ cocktails, step outside and see how many bodegas are near you. Then pay your $3000-$4000/month rent for a 1 bedroom in the same neighborhood. These things are not mutually exclusive.
I really, really liked a lot of the things that you said. And I'd like to say thank you as a fellow millennial for purchasing your first house in Chicago city proper. You are only 1 year older than me, and yet you have managed to become a home owner not to mention in a great world class city like Chicago. Coming from the most cocky dude on this forum, I envy you. I am from the Northeast, and I finished my last year of college in the terrible 2008-2009 recession. The cost of living even in NJ where I was is very inflated and IMHO not fair. I simply do not have the same savings that you do, flat out. Now that I am here I am seeing opportunities to build these savings again.
Maybe someday your children will get to walk to the bodega on every corner that you speak of. Perhaps when they are teenagers they will be able to save and stack their money instead of putting every dollar of it into a dilapidated first car and exuberant car insurance. Perhaps because of the density they will not need a vehicle and they will simply just walk or ride the El from place to place to meet with friends and loved ones. Perhaps they will have 30 or 40 friends within a 4 or 5 block radius. I sure wish I had those kinds of opportunities and choices. My father died when I was only 9 and we were a struggling single mother family, me being the only child. She could not afford to give me a car when I was 17. We stayed in the suburbs of Essex County NJ after he died for whatever reason. While there is very good public transit in the suburb where I'm from connecting to NYC, as far as using it to get back and forth to college was not practical. Not if you wanted to have a social life or a girlfriend anyway for that matter. My uncle felt sorry for me and gave me his 80s sports car (1986 300ZX) so I wouldn't be a total loser. My insurance was $500 a month at 17-18 (yeah that's Jersey for you) and I spent all of my savings on constantly repairing the car which was 20 years old and needed work. It sucked. I always struggled back then. Plus I was always getting tickets and ended up in a few accidents. Maybe if I were in a house like the one you just bought I would not have been plagued with such a situation. But I was in the suburbs, and who doesn't have a car right? Public transit is only for poor people right? Oh we got to get a gallon of milk? Fire up the Chevy. Going to the gym? Yep, where's my keys. SMH. Thank god people our age are starting to think in terms of sustainable living and a little common sense.
Yes, the Bronx is always a forgotten part of NYC but what you need to consider is the density in the northeast. As a Caucasian male, I rarely had any reason to goto the Bronx (well, the South Bronx anyway) for reasons involving work or play. However, sometimes in the summer I would take a nice walk through Mott Haven, Melrose, Port Morris after work off of the 4 train just to look at all the cool art deco brownstones. It is truly the only borough left in NYC that has that "old New York" feel that you just can't ever, ever replace no matter how much you dream and envision it. No matter what novel, movie, or TV show you watched that made you fall in love with a place, you cannot will a city's past back into existence. It is sad though. My mother was from Manhattan - Italian Harlem, specifically and described that whole place as a different world. Nowadays Italian Harlem sounds like an oxymoron, but, that area later became known as "El Bario" or "Spanish Harlem". My grandmother when I was a child would tell me stories about there being horses in the streets of Lower Manhattan, and growing up in Little Italy. She remembered sometimes, as a child there would be a poor person rattling through the trash on the ground floor of their tenement building. My great grandmother, from Italy, would call out the window in her broken English, "hold on! I'm gonna make you a sandwich" and she would quickly put it together, wrap it in foil and toss it down.
The reason the Bronx is often forgotten is because it is considered the least desired borough of NYC. Keep in mind, this mainly refers to the South Bronx, as the North Bronx can be very different and ironically does not have the same density you are speaking of. In fact in the North Bronx as you approach the line of Westchester County (as the Bronx is the only borough connected to the mainland United States), it can appear somewhat suburban. The reason the South Bronx is undesirable is because of what occurred (mainly) from 1970-1980. White flight at the time and landlord abandonment were so wicked that people, desperate, began torching down entire buildings in the hopes of getting a housing voucher or landlords doing it to collect insurance as these buildings became worthless and the entire neighborhood became Afro-American. The city simply could not keep up with the fires. At one point, the 41st precinct was dealing with over a dozen buildings a day being burned for years! Eventually they stopped bothering to investigate the fires. 22 census tracts lost 97% of their residents! During the decade 40% of the buildings in the South Bronx were burned, and the area was akin to a bombed out European city in WWII. Today the South Bronx contains some of the poorest congressional districts in the US, however - the area has now been largely rebuilt and very few torched out buildings still remain. I also find it so ironic that all New Yorkers must enter the South Bronx to attend Yankee Stadium, regardless of how they may trash talk and demean the borough. It reminds me of "The Eyes of Dr. TJ Eckleberg, looming over the Valley of Ashes in the Great Gatsby. Implying that no matter what class you were born of, everyone had to pass through the valley of ashes and the eyes represented God looking down and not being fooled by subject of class envy.
I find it interesting that you compare the Bronx to Humboldt Park. Not sure if this is accurate. One could argue that the equivalent of the Bronx in Chicago is the Wild 100s, or Englewood, as I feel Humboldt Park has some more desirability to it than that part of the Bronx. Then again, that could be East New York or Brownsville too.
I hope you have fun enjoying your new house. Congratulations.
It's "exorbitant", not "exuberant". Car insurance isn't happy...
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