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Old 12-27-2016, 02:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
Not to be the bearer of bad news, but the Metro East is struggling like the rest of the state. The two largest counties that make up the bulk of the Metro East's population (St. Clair and Madison Counties) both contracted. The Metro East's largest city, Belleville, has also contracted and appears to be shifting into a lower economic bracket than it formerly was.

The contraction of the Metro East is actually hurting the St. Louis area, as the only county to post a decline on the Missouri side of the river was the city of St. Louis itself, which gets counted as a sort of county in these counts due to its independent city status. The geographic center in the metro is shifting further west thanks to a booming St. Charles County in Missouri, and St. Louis County's continued ability to poach jobs projects from the city of St. Louis.

Now I will say that the city of St. Louis is getting better, but don't count on its ability to somehow stabilize the Metro East. I also say this as a person who grew up in the area, btw.
St. Louis anchors the region. If St. Louis has finally stabilized and is moving towards even modest growth, this will help the eastern suburbs in Illinois. It may not happen overnight, but it'll be impossible to resist the eastern bank of the Mississippi forever. Doesn't MetroLink run into Illinois?

 
Old 12-27-2016, 02:44 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
2,694 posts, read 3,190,781 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishIllini View Post
St. Louis anchors the region. If St. Louis has finally stabilized and is moving towards even modest growth, this will help the eastern suburbs in Illinois. It may not happen overnight, but it'll be impossible to resist the eastern bank of the Mississippi forever. Doesn't MetroLink run into Illinois?
St. Louis remains the region's anchor city, and its face, but things are a bit complicated. St. Louis is the second most decentralized city in the country when it comes to job location. Only Detroit is more decentralized.

St. Louis' trouble is that its booming central corridor that cuts across the city straight into suburban St. Louis County, specifically West County, has left downtown out of much of that boom until just recently. Clayton, the seat of St. Louis County, has been poaching jobs away from downtown St. Louis for years now, and is in the midst of a building boom. In the city itself, companies have preferred their new offices be located in the city's Central West End and Midtown neighborhoods. A large part of this stems from the Cortex Innovation District, which is home to various startups. Downtown has survived on conversions, but this might be changing in the near future, as two new office buildings were announced for downtown. They'll be downtown's first new office buildings since 1989.

Will downtown catch up to the rest of the central corridor? I certainly hope so, as I have a good feeling about all the recently announced projects downtown and elsewhere in the corridor (Ballpark Village Phase II downtown, the NGA moving to North St. Louis, Studio Gang's tower in the CWE, etc), but metro St. Louis' economic center will continue to creep further west from the Mississippi. That's something that won't change in the near future, especially as the city's population continues to slowly decline, albeit at its lowest rate in 60 years, St. Louis County's population remains flat, and suburban/exurban St. Charles County continues to be the region's poster child for growth.

As for the Metro East, the area is seeing a shift further eastward, away from the city of St. Louis. The cities that are immediately adjacent to St. Louis, such as East St. Louis and Cahokia, continue to decline, but cities like Belleville, which sits on top of a bluff overlooking East St. Louis, is seeing white flight. Residents from East St. Louis are moving in, and a lot of white people are moving further out into the Metro East. New subdivisions are going in small towns immediately adjacent to Belleville, and increasingly south in Monroe County, but the people leaving are not necessarily all being replaced.

As for MetroLink, yes it does go into Illinois, but ridership is decreasing. Whether that's actually true is unknown though, as Metro doesn't use turnstiles, and many people simply don't buy a ticket and assume they won't encounter anyone who will ask to see one. Others say ridership is declining because MetroLink is becoming more dangerous. This is also a perception that is currently plaguing downtown St. Louis in the wake of several high profile robberies gone wrong, including one after a Cardinals game, and the carjacking and murder of a 20 something mother on Washington Ave, one of the most popular streets in downtown.

Anyway, to end my little rant, you have a region that is pulling in two different directions, and on top of that, Missouri does not give a rat's ass about Illinois. Many in St. Louis County can't be bothered to care about the city of St. Louis, let alone the Illinois side, which simply makes them think of East St. Louis and cornfields. Compare it to how people from Chicago like to make fun of Indiana.
 
Old 12-27-2016, 03:00 PM
 
Location: In the heights
37,148 posts, read 39,404,784 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
St. Louis remains the region's anchor city, and its face, but things are a bit complicated. St. Louis is the second most decentralized city in the country when it comes to job location. Only Detroit is more decentralized.

St. Louis' trouble is that its booming central corridor that cuts across the city straight into suburban St. Louis County, specifically West County, has left downtown out of much of that boom until just recently. Clayton, the seat of St. Louis County, has been poaching jobs away from downtown St. Louis for years now, and is in the midst of a building boom. In the city itself, companies have preferred their new offices be located in the city's Central West End and Midtown neighborhoods. A large part of this stems from the Cortex Innovation District, which is home to various startups. Downtown has survived on conversions, but this might be changing in the near future, as two new office buildings were announced for downtown. They'll be downtown's first new office buildings since 1989.

Will downtown catch up to the rest of the central corridor? I certainly hope so, as I have a good feeling about all the recently announced projects downtown and elsewhere in the corridor (Ballpark Village Phase II downtown, the NGA moving to North St. Louis, Studio Gang's tower in the CWE, etc), but metro St. Louis' economic center will continue to creep further west from the Mississippi. That's something that won't change in the near future, especially as the city's population continues to slowly decline, albeit at its lowest rate in 60 years, St. Louis County's population remains flat, and suburban/exurban St. Charles County continues to be the region's poster child for growth.

As for the Metro East, the area is seeing a shift further eastward, away from the city of St. Louis. The cities that are immediately adjacent to St. Louis, such as East St. Louis and Cahokia, continue to decline, but cities like Belleville, which sits on top of a bluff overlooking East St. Louis, is seeing white flight. Residents from East St. Louis are moving in, and a lot of white people are moving further out into the Metro East. New subdivisions are going in small towns immediately adjacent to Belleville, and increasingly south in Monroe County, but the people leaving are not necessarily all being replaced.

As for MetroLink, yes it does go into Illinois, but ridership is decreasing. Whether that's actually true is unknown though, as Metro doesn't use turnstiles, and many people simply don't buy a ticket and assume they won't encounter anyone who will ask to see one. Others say ridership is declining because MetroLink is becoming more dangerous. This is also a perception that is currently plaguing downtown St. Louis in the wake of several high profile robberies gone wrong, including one after a Cardinals game, and the carjacking and murder of a 20 something mother on Washington Ave, one of the most popular streets in downtown.

Anyway, to end my little rant, you have a region that is pulling in two different directions, and on top of that, Missouri does not give a rat's ass about Illinois. Many in St. Louis County can't be bothered to care about the city of St. Louis, let alone the Illinois side, which simply makes them think of East St. Louis and cornfields. Compare it to how people from Chicago like to make fun of Indiana.
Well, downtown St. Louis has been growing in population and it isn't that unlikely that the 2020 census will have St. Louis post its first decade to decade non-negative population change. St. Louis is internally doing something similar to what Chicago is. St. Louis's predominantly black north side has continued to shrink while downtown and the better off west and south side neighborhoods have been seen population growth, often with a more affluent base. Internally, it's a lot of population change, but the net is approximately zero population growth overall. How that plays out for the Metro East suburbs remains to be seen--in the near future, it's still not much better, but as downtown St. Louis does better, as well as the transit-connected neighborhoods west of downtown, there's potential for pushing just right across the river. For now, the estimate shows the East St. Louis population change between the 2010 census and the 2015 estimate to be -0.8% which is a far cry from the straight six decades of double digit loss before that.
 
Old 12-27-2016, 03:07 PM
 
1,851 posts, read 2,171,322 times
Reputation: 1283
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
St. Louis remains the region's anchor city, and its face, but things are a bit complicated. St. Louis is the second most decentralized city in the country when it comes to job location. Only Detroit is more decentralized.

St. Louis' trouble is that its booming central corridor that cuts across the city straight into suburban St. Louis County, specifically West County, has left downtown out of much of that boom until just recently. Clayton, the seat of St. Louis County, has been poaching jobs away from downtown St. Louis for years now, and is in the midst of a building boom. In the city itself, companies have preferred their new offices be located in the city's Central West End and Midtown neighborhoods. A large part of this stems from the Cortex Innovation District, which is home to various startups. Downtown has survived on conversions, but this might be changing in the near future, as two new office buildings were announced for downtown. They'll be downtown's first new office buildings since 1989.

Will downtown catch up to the rest of the central corridor? I certainly hope so, as I have a good feeling about all the recently announced projects downtown and elsewhere in the corridor (Ballpark Village Phase II downtown, the NGA moving to North St. Louis, Studio Gang's tower in the CWE, etc), but metro St. Louis' economic center will continue to creep further west from the Mississippi. That's something that won't change in the near future, especially as the city's population continues to slowly decline, albeit at its lowest rate in 60 years, St. Louis County's population remains flat, and suburban/exurban St. Charles County continues to be the region's poster child for growth.

As for the Metro East, the area is seeing a shift further eastward, away from the city of St. Louis. The cities that are immediately adjacent to St. Louis, such as East St. Louis and Cahokia, continue to decline, but cities like Belleville, which sits on top of a bluff overlooking East St. Louis, is seeing white flight. Residents from East St. Louis are moving in, and a lot of white people are moving further out into the Metro East. New subdivisions are going in small towns immediately adjacent to Belleville, and increasingly south in Monroe County, but the people leaving are not necessarily all being replaced.

As for MetroLink, yes it does go into Illinois, but ridership is decreasing. Whether that's actually true is unknown though, as Metro doesn't use turnstiles, and many people simply don't buy a ticket and assume they won't encounter anyone who will ask to see one. Others say ridership is declining because MetroLink is becoming more dangerous. This is also a perception that is currently plaguing downtown St. Louis in the wake of several high profile robberies gone wrong, including one after a Cardinals game, and the carjacking and murder of a 20 something mother on Washington Ave, one of the most popular streets in downtown.

Anyway, to end my little rant, you have a region that is pulling in two different directions, and on top of that, Missouri does not give a rat's ass about Illinois. Many in St. Louis County can't be bothered to care about the city of St. Louis, let alone the Illinois side, which simply makes them think of East St. Louis and cornfields. Compare it to how people from Chicago like to make fun of Indiana.
Very interesting post. First building since 1989?! Chicago's Prudential Tower was the first tower constructed Downtown in something like 20 years, so it's feasible that a building boom takes hold in DT STL. Investment begets additional investment.

E.STL is down to fewer than 30k residents, although the losses seem to be slowing. Down less than 1 percent since 2010. There are a lot of great buildings near the river/downtown that I'm sure will attract the same type of developers you see rehabbing dilapidated structures in downtown St. Louis. No, this won't happen overnight, but it will happen. Look at River North in Chicago circa 1960/70 to today.

As for MetroLink, I can't speak to the quality of service as I've never used it, but the L wasn't always viewed as an asset either. Stations would close early or just be bypassed entirely, but perceptions change. At least STL has something like MetroLink. That'll definitely help continue to attract additional investment and redevelop the forgotten parts of STL both on the Missouri and Illinois sides.

Again, I don't think this is going to happen overnight or even over a decade, but the fact of the matter is these places have the resources to round the corner and progress.
 
Old 12-27-2016, 03:14 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
2,694 posts, read 3,190,781 times
Reputation: 2763
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Well, downtown St. Louis has been growing in population and it isn't that unlikely that the 2020 census will have St. Louis post its first decade to decade non-negative population change. St. Louis is internally doing something similar to what Chicago is. St. Louis's predominantly black north side has continued to shrink while downtown and the better off west and south side neighborhoods have been seen population growth, often with a more affluent base. Internally, it's a lot of population change, but the net is approximately zero population growth overall. How that plays out for the Metro East suburbs remains to be seen--in the near future, it's still not much better, but as downtown St. Louis does better, as well as the transit-connected neighborhoods west of downtown, there's potential for pushing just right across the river. For now, the estimate shows the East St. Louis population change between the 2010 census and the 2015 estimate to be -0.8% which is a far cry from the straight six decades of double digit loss before that.
Downtown St. Louis' population has grown, but downtown needs to do a better job at attracting new residents while retaining and growing businesses (hell, a second CVS would be nice...). Downtown will take some time to fully hit its stride, especially in comparison to the rest of the country, but I do have faith. Right now downtown is looking at the Cupples X office building, Ballpark Village Phase II which includes an apartment building an an additional office tower, the completion of the CityArchRiver project, including the Arch grounds renovation, the renovation of Union Station into a Navy Pier like environment with a ferris wheel and large aquarium, and quite possible the building of a major league soccer stadium immediately west of Union Station. Ballpark Village Phase III will also quite possibly be announced next year. It really feels like downtown is turning a corner, but I'm scared that I'll jinx it.

As for East St. Louis, it's screwed, and it's going to stay that way for decades to come. St. Louis currently does not have enough momentum to stabilize its northern half, let alone East St. Louis. South St. Louis, at least at the 2010 Census, was also declining, but in a different way. It's not entirely gentrified out, and there remain quite a few rough neighborhoods, but the ones that were gentrifying were seeing decreased population sizes as couples converted buildings that had formerly multiple units into one SFH. The Central Corridor was the part of town showing gains. Whether South City has changed that in the last 5 years, I don't know, but I also remain hopeful.

If the NGA helps to stabilize part of North St. Louis, downtown rounds that corner, and the city gets a handle on crime, this will help the Metro East, but Illinois is also going to have to step up. As the state's finances continue to be a headache felt by nearly 13 million people, many in the Metro East will see greener grass in Missouri. St. Louis might be able to stabilize the Metro East, but Illinois will have to improve in order to help grow it again.
 
Old 12-27-2016, 03:22 PM
 
1,851 posts, read 2,171,322 times
Reputation: 1283
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
Downtown St. Louis' population has grown, but downtown needs to do a better job at attracting new residents while retaining and growing businesses (hell, a second CVS would be nice...). Downtown will take some time to fully hit its stride, especially in comparison to the rest of the country, but I do have faith. Right now downtown is looking at the Cupples X office building, Ballpark Village Phase II which includes an apartment building an an additional office tower, the completion of the CityArchRiver project, including the Arch grounds renovation, the renovation of Union Station into a Navy Pier like environment with a ferris wheel and large aquarium, and quite possible the building of a major league soccer stadium immediately west of Union Station. Ballpark Village Phase III will also quite possibly be announced next year. It really feels like downtown is turning a corner, but I'm scared that I'll jinx it.

As for East St. Louis, it's screwed, and it's going to stay that way for decades to come. St. Louis currently does not have enough momentum to stabilize its northern half, let alone East St. Louis. South St. Louis, at least at the 2010 Census, was also declining, but in a different way. It's not entirely gentrified out, and there remain quite a few rough neighborhoods, but the ones that were gentrifying were seeing decreased population sizes as couples converted buildings that had formerly multiple units into one SFH. The Central Corridor was the part of town showing gains. Whether South City has changed that in the last 5 years, I don't know, but I also remain hopeful.

If the NGA helps to stabilize part of North St. Louis, downtown rounds that corner, and the city gets a handle on crime, this will help the Metro East, but Illinois is also going to have to step up. As the state's finances continue to be a headache felt by nearly 13 million people, many in the Metro East will see greener grass in Missouri. St. Louis might be able to stabilize the Metro East, but Illinois will have to improve in order to help grow it again.
You have to walk before you can run though. Who would have thought St. Louis would have issued over 1k building permits last year in 2010? People would have said you're crazy. No one goes from the cellar to the penthouse in a year. It'll take time, but the rebound appears to be happening.
 
Old 12-27-2016, 03:36 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
2,694 posts, read 3,190,781 times
Reputation: 2763
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishIllini View Post
Very interesting post. First building since 1989?! Chicago's Prudential Tower was the first tower constructed Downtown in something like 20 years, so it's feasible that a building boom takes hold in DT STL. Investment begets additional investment.
Office building, yes. There have been residential buildings, and the Eagleton Courthouse in 2000, but downtown didn't add any new office towers. A lot of downtowns residential increases were due to rehabbing historic buildings into lofts. Right now there are some prominent buildings in downtown sitting vacate, including some highrises, but there have been improvements. I'm still not certain what they're going to do with the AT&T Center.

Quote:
E.STL is down to fewer than 30k residents, although the losses seem to be slowing. Down less than 1 percent since 2010. There are a lot of great buildings near the river/downtown that I'm sure will attract the same type of developers you see rehabbing dilapidated structures in downtown St. Louis. No, this won't happen overnight, but it will happen. Look at River North in Chicago circa 1960/70 to today.
East St. Louis is more comparable to Gary or Camden than it is River North. The clock is also ticking for historic buildings in downtown East St. Louis as well, as many have sat vacate for years and have been torn down. There was a fairly high profile building torn down last year, for example. Due to population losses and these tear downs, downtown East St. Louis isn't all that urban anymore. It's also blocked from the riverfront thanks to the Casino Queen, a the interstate, and other industry. It's just not scenic, and it remains the most dangerous town in America when you look at smaller locations. It would almost be easier to stabilize everything around East St. Louis in all directions, and then hoping something happens.

If something happens in East St. Louis, it's decades away. It has the potential, but there's currently no desire.

Quote:
As for MetroLink, I can't speak to the quality of service as I've never used it, but the L wasn't always viewed as an asset either. Stations would close early or just be bypassed entirely, but perceptions change. At least STL has something like MetroLink. That'll definitely help continue to attract additional investment and redevelop the forgotten parts of STL both on the Missouri and Illinois sides.

Again, I don't think this is going to happen overnight or even over a decade, but the fact of the matter is these places have the resources to round the corner and progress.
MetroLink is limited, but there is talk of expanding it with a North/South branch in the city of St. Louis. St. Louis landing the NGA in North St. Louis helps this, but St. Louis County is opposed, and the project would expand into the County.

The trouble is that there's perception that MetroLink = crime, so it must be blocked (this is also why the Fairview Heights station in Illinois is located nowhere near the shopping or the mall, and is instead miles away). Public transportation in St. Louis is very much thought of as being something meant for poor people. I'd say there's less of this perception in the city itself, especially in trendy neighborhoods, and even Clayton is getting a TOD style apartment building, but this is the current state of MetroLink's system:


The northern and southern halves of the city are completely disconnected from the system, but the city would like to change this, even if the County doesn't want to.
Slay talks up MetroLink expansion as he takes top transit official on a St. Louis tour | Political Fix | stltoday.com
 
Old 12-27-2016, 03:47 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
2,694 posts, read 3,190,781 times
Reputation: 2763
Btw, when I talk about the NGA, they're going to turn a largely vacate part of North St. Louis near what used to be the Pruitt-Igoe projects into something that will look like this:

Source: https://nextstl.com/2015/10/high-res...st-louis-city/

It currently looks like this:

Source:
St. Louis prepares for NGA's billion-dollar move | Metro | stltoday.com
 
Old 12-27-2016, 06:00 PM
 
1,851 posts, read 2,171,322 times
Reputation: 1283
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
Office building, yes. There have been residential buildings, and the Eagleton Courthouse in 2000, but downtown didn't add any new office towers. A lot of downtowns residential increases were due to rehabbing historic buildings into lofts. Right now there are some prominent buildings in downtown sitting vacate, including some highrises, but there have been improvements. I'm still not certain what they're going to do with the AT&T Center.



East St. Louis is more comparable to Gary or Camden than it is River North. The clock is also ticking for historic buildings in downtown East St. Louis as well, as many have sat vacate for years and have been torn down. There was a fairly high profile building torn down last year, for example. Due to population losses and these tear downs, downtown East St. Louis isn't all that urban anymore. It's also blocked from the riverfront thanks to the Casino Queen, a the interstate, and other industry. It's just not scenic, and it remains the most dangerous town in America when you look at smaller locations. It would almost be easier to stabilize everything around East St. Louis in all directions, and then hoping something happens.

If something happens in East St. Louis, it's decades away. It has the potential, but there's currently no desire.



MetroLink is limited, but there is talk of expanding it with a North/South branch in the city of St. Louis. St. Louis landing the NGA in North St. Louis helps this, but St. Louis County is opposed, and the project would expand into the County.

The trouble is that there's perception that MetroLink = crime, so it must be blocked (this is also why the Fairview Heights station in Illinois is located nowhere near the shopping or the mall, and is instead miles away). Public transportation in St. Louis is very much thought of as being something meant for poor people. I'd say there's less of this perception in the city itself, especially in trendy neighborhoods, and even Clayton is getting a TOD style apartment building, but this is the current state of MetroLink's system:


The northern and southern halves of the city are completely disconnected from the system, but the city would like to change this, even if the County doesn't want to.
Slay talks up MetroLink expansion as he takes top transit official on a St. Louis tour | Political Fix | stltoday.com
Interesting info. Yes, E. STL is totally different than River North, but my point is that people had written off River North and even the Loop back in the 50's and 60's and now they're some of the most desirable parts of the city. It won't be easy, but there are definitely better days ahead for STL and E. STL.

Also interesting pictures in your second post. I wish the building was brought closer to the street (Jefferson?), but I guess if you're going for a building in a park type setting it nails it.
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