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Old 08-14-2020, 10:13 AM
 
3,154 posts, read 2,030,500 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMansLands View Post
These posts crack me up.
Trump is screaming voter fraud with mail in ballots simply because he knows if voting is easy for those who have transportation issues, covid concerns, and everyone can easily vote.....he'll lose in darn near a landslide. It's so transparent do the math.
I'm not so sure about that, older people are most likely to have suppressed voter turnout due to the Covid, and those people tend to vote conservative, so mail-in voting may help Trump more than Biden.

Trump's concern with mail-in voting has much more to do with fraud, which has already been demonstrated. Not sure what the hoopla from the Left is, because mail-in (early) voting is already allowed, in virtually all states, isn't it?

I share Trump's concerns about creating a "new" system this close to such an important election. But if one could be created with sufficient safeguards to prevent fraud, I would drop my objections. How do you propose to do that? The LAST thing we need to do right now is provide either side with the ability to call this election "baseless", unless that is, your plan is for more civil strife (war).
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Old 08-14-2020, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Chicago, Tri-Taylor
5,014 posts, read 9,388,676 times
Reputation: 3987
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMansLands View Post
These posts crack me up.
Trump is screaming voter fraud with mail in ballots simply because he knows if voting is easy for those who have transportation issues, covid concerns, and everyone can easily vote.....he'll lose in darn near a landslide. It's so transparent do the math.
Really, I'm not as sure what impact mail in voting will have other than to expose us to months and months of more protests (and probably violence) and allegations from both sides of voter fraud.

If Biden's got this in the bag, and I agree he's pretty far ahead in the polls, what's the big deal on the Democrat side? Take some time and make sure the Postal Service can handle it and get them delivered, and that there's an accurate and credible way to count the ballots that everyone (well most people) trust.

It seems kind of rushed to me, which is a big concern in this climate.
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Old 08-14-2020, 11:19 AM
 
2,690 posts, read 1,585,119 times
Reputation: 9906
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curly Q. Bobalink View Post
I'm not so sure about that, older people are most likely to have suppressed voter turnout due to the Covid, and those people tend to vote conservative, so mail-in voting may help Trump more than Biden.

Trump's concern with mail-in voting has much more to do with fraud, which has already been demonstrated. Not sure what the hoopla from the Left is, because mail-in (early) voting is already allowed, in virtually all states, isn't it?

I share Trump's concerns about creating a "new" system this close to such an important election. But if one could be created with sufficient safeguards to prevent fraud, I would drop my objections. How do you propose to do that? The LAST thing we need to do right now is provide either side with the ability to call this election "baseless", unless that is, your plan is for more civil strife (war).
There are no "older people" democrats? I don't believe that at all, i think you are looking at that from your situation as you age and are going to vote conservative. Certainly there are about equal numbers of democrats and republicans that are "older people". Mail in voting will never help Trump more than Biden, exactly the opposite. Why? Because democrats are more complacent and less organized, youth tend to be more liberal and youth tend to skip voting more than any other age group. These points aren't debatable, they're very obvious, Trump knows it, I know it, and you know it but you're spinning imho.

Fraud which "has already been demonstrated"? Baloney. Has not. Some states already do all mail in ballots and have been proven to be accurate. Where's these imaginary ballots going to come from? It's a baseless argument that some are buying into because they already KNOW they will probably lose if democrats have mail in ballots. Are democrats more lazy about voting? You betcha! I'll admit democrats flaws in a heartbeat.

Each state handles their own ballots, democrats don't want fraudulent ballots, it's just not good for truth and justice and democrats do believe in fairness. But, Trump wants a way to try to stay president after he loses, he knows it's a long shot, but hey, a lot of crap he speaks squeaks by, so why not try this angle too? It's the tactic that completely uncivilized countries use, anywhere dictators can suppress a fair vote. Trump is taking the country to a new low like we have never seen.
I'm betting curly that you know as well as I do everything I typed above and are not oblivious to the obvious. I think you know it and are afraid of the probable outcome which is Trump losing.
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Old 08-14-2020, 11:25 AM
 
2,690 posts, read 1,585,119 times
Reputation: 9906
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRU67 View Post
Really, I'm not as sure what impact mail in voting will have other than to expose us to months and months of more protests (and probably violence) and allegations from both sides of voter fraud.

If Biden's got this in the bag, and I agree he's pretty far ahead in the polls, what's the big deal on the Democrat side? Take some time and make sure the Postal Service can handle it and get them delivered, and that there's an accurate and credible way to count the ballots that everyone (well most people) trust.

It seems kind of rushed to me, which is a big concern in this climate.
It's who won't vote if mail in voting is not allowed.
Those with transportation issues.
Those with covid health concerns.
Those who are not organized.
Those who are complacent.
Those who can't afford to go vote, whether it is about the bus ticket, or a babysitter. The poor.

Who are all of the above?
Democrats.

Trump has defund the USPS on his agenda for a long time, covid might just give him more excuses to get there. There is BIG money to be made in mail delivery and wherever there is big money, go sniffing around and see who will benefit. Trump's friends want that money. Trump will try to deliver.
So getting the USPS which has rampant covid without the extra man hours, laborers, nor help from the gov't to fund handling that much more mail....do you see the problem here? Trump has effectively set up the USPS mafia style to look bad, fail to get the votes to state governments on time, set them up to fail.
Then as the votes trickle in, all the right wing extremists will scream foul, that slow moving counting is some kind of de facto Trump gets to stay in office until this all gets "sorted out" of which endless lawsuits.

All because when the numbers come in and republicans don't like they lost and refuse to accept it.
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Old 08-14-2020, 11:48 AM
 
85 posts, read 93,888 times
Reputation: 349
@NoMansLand - Do you remember the Florida vote count (Gore v Bush)? Total chaos. Mail in votes (not absentee or early voting) is ripe for fraud. Signature validation is a small price to pay. I never understood people who were against some sort of voter ID. My guess is they feel that outside parties (illegals immigrants, felons, etc) are somehow needed to push their party to victory.


The current system. In person, or absentee balloting (via the US mail btw) at least has some modicum of ID verification.


Look at the New York election that is still not resolved. Now multiply that times the number of counties in each state and then times 50. I don't see how any rational person can want this last minute change in voting procedure.
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Old 08-14-2020, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Chicago, Tri-Taylor
5,014 posts, read 9,388,676 times
Reputation: 3987
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMansLands View Post
It's who won't vote if mail in voting is not allowed.
Those with transportation issues.
Those with covid health concerns.
Those who are not organized.
Those who are complacent.
Those who can't afford to go vote, whether it is about the bus ticket, or a babysitter. The poor.

Who are all of the above?
Democrats.

Trump has defund the USPS on his agenda for a long time, covid might just give him more excuses to get there. There is BIG money to be made in mail delivery and wherever there is big money, go sniffing around and see who will benefit. Trump's friends want that money. Trump will try to deliver.
So getting the USPS which has rampant covid without the extra man hours, laborers, nor help from the gov't to fund handling that much more mail....do you see the problem here? Trump has effectively set up the USPS mafia style to look bad, fail to get the votes to state governments on time, set them up to fail.
Then as the votes trickle in, all the right wing extremists will scream foul, that slow moving counting is some kind of de facto Trump gets to stay in office until this all gets "sorted out" of which endless lawsuits.

All because when the numbers come in and republicans don't like they lost and refuse to accept it.
Ah I see. Well, it's good that the Democrats have such concern for the well being and voting rights of those with transportation issues, COVID health concerns, the disorganized, the complacent, and the too-poor-to-vote.

Still though, despite these noble intentions, I think the risks of rushing this through outweigh the rewards (unless you're a Democrat politician which I'm not). I mean, how did they vote before? Democrats have been doing just fine in getting their votes before, and J.B. had 'em out voting back in April after the COVID. But since it seems that the Democrats have been holding up the stimulus bill over getting 25 billion to the Postal Service, those people's voting rights must be important to them indeed! But still, I think this whole thing is too hasty and is a recipe for disaster.
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Old 08-14-2020, 12:00 PM
 
3,154 posts, read 2,030,500 times
Reputation: 9288
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMansLands View Post
There are no "older people" democrats? I don't believe that at all, i think you are looking at that from your situation as you age and are going to vote conservative. Certainly there are about equal numbers of democrats and republicans that are "older people". Mail in voting will never help Trump more than Biden, exactly the opposite. Why? Because democrats are more complacent and less organized, youth tend to be more liberal and youth tend to skip voting more than any other age group. These points aren't debatable, they're very obvious, Trump knows it, I know it, and you know it but you're spinning imho.

Fraud which "has already been demonstrated"? Baloney. Has not. Some states already do all mail in ballots and have been proven to be accurate. Where's these imaginary ballots going to come from? It's a baseless argument that some are buying into because they already KNOW they will probably lose if democrats have mail in ballots. Are democrats more lazy about voting? You betcha! I'll admit democrats flaws in a heartbeat.

Each state handles their own ballots, democrats don't want fraudulent ballots, it's just not good for truth and justice and democrats do believe in fairness. But, Trump wants a way to try to stay president after he loses, he knows it's a long shot, but hey, a lot of crap he speaks squeaks by, so why not try this angle too? It's the tactic that completely uncivilized countries use, anywhere dictators can suppress a fair vote. Trump is taking the country to a new low like we have never seen.
I'm betting curly that you know as well as I do everything I typed above and are not oblivious to the obvious. I think you know it and are afraid of the probable outcome which is Trump losing.
Tad early in the day to begin shouting, don't you think? What I asserted (that older voters tend to vote conservative) has been a widely held belief for a long time, but what is more widely held, is that "older people tend to be a more reliable set of voters". I'm certainly no expert and am just beginning to learn about the controversy, this is on today's planned reading:
https://www.brookings.edu/policy2020...lection-fraud/
I'm pretty sure that Brookings is a reliable source, I don't have a clue what their recommendation is.

My own concern is exactly what I said, it is about not introducing voter fraud, or even the appearance of fraud, this close to an election that is expected to be both close and hotly contested. Personally, I find the fact that only about fifty percent of people eligible to vote actually doing so to be abysmal, I wish more people would be involved - apathy on half the voters' behalf does not speak well to our Republic.

Making big changes to how we elect our leaders has to be done very carefully. Obviously, the same charges you are levying at people not going all-in on mail in voting could be turned right back at you (that you support it since you believe it will help your chosen candidate), so in light that we could do that all day, I'd prefer to spend my time actually learning about it and making an informed decision.
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Old 08-14-2020, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Chicago, Tri-Taylor
5,014 posts, read 9,388,676 times
Reputation: 3987
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curly Q. Bobalink View Post
Tad early in the day to begin shouting, don't you think? What I asserted (that older voters tend to vote conservative) has been a widely held belief for a long time, but what is more widely held, is that "older people tend to be a more reliable set of voters". I'm certainly no expert and am just beginning to learn about the controversy, this is on today's planned reading:
https://www.brookings.edu/policy2020...lection-fraud/
I'm pretty sure that Brookings is a reliable source, I don't have a clue what their recommendation is.

My own concern is exactly what I said, it is about not introducing voter fraud, or even the appearance of fraud, this close to an election that is expected to be both close and hotly contested. Personally, I find the fact that only about fifty percent of people eligible to vote actually doing so to be abysmal, I wish more people would be involved - apathy on half the voters' behalf does not speak well to our Republic.

Making big changes to how we elect our leaders has to be done very carefully. Obviously, the same charges you are levying at people not going all-in on mail in voting could be turned right back at you (that you support it since you believe it will help your chosen candidate), so in light that we could do that all day, I'd prefer to spend my time actually learning about it and making an informed decision.
I mean, I don't care if it helps Ghandi or the Good Lord Jesus himself get elected. It's too hasty and is going to be an absolute disaster in this climate. It is sad that Congressional Democrats are willing to risk chaos to grab votes I'd say the same thing if the Republicans were driving this.

** To add to this, as I said above, Biden is ahead in the polls. If you're a Democrat, do you really want to give Trump and MAGA country a grounds to dispute the legitimacy of the election? It seems a stupid risk to take for a few additional votes, a risk which assumes that large numbers of people not motivated to go to a polling place are going to fill out a form, put a stamp on it, and walk over to the mailbox to mail it. One might think they're the ones concerned about how good those polls are and want to sow post-election chaos.

Last edited by BRU67; 08-14-2020 at 01:00 PM..
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Old 08-14-2020, 01:57 PM
 
3,154 posts, read 2,030,500 times
Reputation: 9288
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRU67 View Post
I mean, I don't care if it helps Ghandi or the Good Lord Jesus himself get elected. It's too hasty and is going to be an absolute disaster in this climate. It is sad that Congressional Democrats are willing to risk chaos to grab votes I'd say the same thing if the Republicans were driving this.

** To add to this, as I said above, Biden is ahead in the polls. If you're a Democrat, do you really want to give Trump and MAGA country a grounds to dispute the legitimacy of the election? It seems a stupid risk to take for a few additional votes, a risk which assumes that large numbers of people not motivated to go to a polling place are going to fill out a form, put a stamp on it, and walk over to the mailbox to mail it. One might think they're the ones concerned about how good those polls are and want to sow post-election chaos.
There is a lot of uncertainty on this one - count me as one who does not believe the polling is accurate by any stretch, I think this one could even be a repeat of Reagan / Mondale in '84 - the rioting (er, I mean, "peaceful protesting") has really shook up a lot of people, especially the ones that reliably vote.

There are so many curve balls in this race (Trump's perceived actions on the pandemic; the resultant crash of the economy for many, especially uncertainty on jobs and evictions; Biden's obvious signs of dementia; the wild swing of the stock market and rise of gold; the bond rate slump; Kamala being a polarizing figure; the Floyd protests / rioting and BLM becoming the militant wing of the Democratic party; the unknown effect of increasing the national debt by fifteen percent almost overnight; the calls to "defund the police"; and just the total amount of uncertainty out there right now) - I'm thinking that people are going to vote for "safety and security", and that isn't Biden. I guess the real question is, are most people unhappy enough with Trump that they are willing to risk their futures on the unknown that is Sleepy Joe and Kameltoe? We shall see.

I'm personally with Joe Rogan, waiting for The Rock and Jocko Willink to enter the race as Independents at the last minute, and upset the entire apple cart.
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Old 08-14-2020, 02:20 PM
 
1,803 posts, read 918,992 times
Reputation: 1344
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMansLands View Post
These posts crack me up.
Trump is screaming voter fraud with mail in ballots simply because he knows if voting is easy for those who have transportation issues, covid concerns, and everyone can easily vote.....he'll lose in darn near a landslide. It's so transparent do the math.
All I will add is that if true that Trump himself is voting in Florida by absentee ballot? A bit hypocritical ...... Just so many things are more a do as I say or believe not as I actually did all his life and such a aspect as even voting. Even the fiasco of holding up a bible for that infamous Photo-shoot that will be part of his legacy in a hypocritical way too may never have opened one and read it even in is far and inbetween lifetime of Church visits.

Now I fall prey to a totally political post I usually say should be kept more in the Politics forum. At least no one can say Biden has no history of Church attendance.
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