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Old 12-12-2020, 10:25 PM
 
1,073 posts, read 291,013 times
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My point was the disappointment is even Nationally. No just Chicago as those who I never know if they will depend Chicago today or downplay it. Guess they will just say Oh, I am honest.

I still see as the above Related developer's towers for the Chicago River and Lake Shore Drive will still be stunners. Clearly, the Podium had the bulk if not all the hotel portion and the additional Parking now removed and underground. At least no one is defending a joined Podium anymore.

This Picture is what the terracotta cladding was to look like whether it remains as some accents yet or removed.
When I saw the picture.... I expected something more akin to the decorative Wrigley building and so many buildings across the city.

https://assets.archpaper.com/wp-cont...ign-Detail.jpg

The picture does not show and special features to pop the buildings design to me? IMO

Full kink picture came from. Maybe it will look more metallic then white now? Either way....
I do not see some major look change viewed from ground-level by terracotta being more or less?

https://www.archpaper.com/2018/05/so...rs-spire-site/

In a perfect world every Architect could put in ALL the FEATURES Their Brains could create for a skyscraper. In reality.... few will or are allowed to by price-points that need to be met. Chicago labor will have to be highly or higher-paid Union Workers vs Dubai that imports cheap labor from other parts of Asia to work.

Whether our Sunbelt cities have cheaper Mexican laborers non-Union allowed? I do not know. I already posted a link in a thread on labor cost to build a tower in Asia vs NYC, Chicago or Atlanta. Clearly, in Asia it is cheapest and NYC the costliest with Chicago after NYC and Atlanta next. Seemed in that link if I remember. for the same price-point you got a 80-story in NYC 100-story in Chicago and 120-story in Atlanta.

In Chicago ... the city also gets the developers/builders to spend many millions on extras in improvements, Parks, streets or giving toward low-income investment to be made in the city etc. That probably happens much less in Sunbelt cities.

This link shows the 2018 rendering and podium vs the 2020 one without it. it has one of them changing pictures from 2018 to 2020. The Podium does not look like much of a loss at all. No sure why the tower portion looks different also? the 2020 one does look like the Chicago terracotta looking one vs the 2018? Not sure why.

From the above link is the drawings of the towers originally and the new design here....

https://www.chicagoarchitecture.org/...uo/page-07-36/

Seems like the Hotel was in the 4 story podium and South Tower. The buildings will go from Condos to Apartments now with a increase overall of rentals over number of Condos previously with the Hotel.

I for one just have my fingers crossed it gets built. Clearly, it did not break ground this year. Time will tell how these finished towers will look. Whether terracotta before and gone now or accents? Seems like in reality .... it is not much different in it was not going to be with much decoration as we typically see with older terracotta beauties.

Vista I must say .... does look just like its renderings for the finished product from Grant Park side and River side plus the color. Guess we will see what colors and appearance that the Related twin towers will have if completed.....
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Old 12-13-2020, 11:05 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKParker View Post
Great thread through out, better than most on city-data.

Chicago is second to NY in skyscrapers, no doubt, but there is no one else close to Chicago.

I care about the size of our skyscrapers but also dissapointed in the designs we've had out recently as well as the political obstruction. The 78 an Lincoln Yards will only be shells of their proposed selves when finished, but still bigger developments than any non-NY city will see.
Agree 100%.

Lincoln Yards is another situation like I've been mentioning where Bucktown & Lincoln Park residents and stakeholders were allowed to remove the entertainment district from the project, shorten the building heights from 850' to 600'. They suggested even more park space plus removed a potential soccer stadium for the Chicago Fire. Of course the aldermen caved to those demands and after long revisions what resurfaced was a watered down suburban, corprorate-office-park with much low density, height and scale.

This is the broken system we have where neighborhood groups will sue and organize propoganda campaigns to turn out objectionists to pressure the city into reversing course. The aldermen almost never go against their ire and what's good for the city as a whole is sacrificed for what appeases local NIMBY's.

This is the same reason Related's towers at 400 N. LSD were restricted from operating a hotel. The wealthy contributors in the town-homes on N. Water St. were opposed to hotel guests walking near their homes and didn't want ride-sharing or taxi traffic. They essentially claimed drunk people would be rioting in the streets on a nightly basis.

Crowded sidewalks, streetwall canyons, long lines, packed trains and more vehicular traffic are all good things in the sense it means your community is in demand and being patronized. Chicago is a global city that tries to eliminate these byproducts of being a successful metropolis.
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Old 12-13-2020, 12:06 PM
 
330 posts, read 132,170 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHyping View Post
My point was the disappointment is even Nationally. No just Chicago as those who I never know if they will depend Chicago today or downplay it. Guess they will just say Oh, I am honest.

I still see as the above Related developer's towers for the Chicago River and Lake Shore Drive will still be stunners. Clearly, the Podium had the bulk if not all the hotel portion and the additional Parking now removed and underground. At least no one is defending a joined Podium anymore.

This Picture is what the terracotta cladding was to look like whether it remains as some accents yet or removed.
When I saw the picture.... I expected something more akin to the decorative Wrigley building and so many buildings across the city.

https://assets.archpaper.com/wp-cont...ign-Detail.jpg

The picture does not show and special features to pop the buildings design to me? IMO

Full kink picture came from. Maybe it will look more metallic then white now? Either way....
I do not see some major look change viewed from ground-level by terracotta being more or less?

https://www.archpaper.com/2018/05/so...rs-spire-site/

In a perfect world every Architect could put in ALL the FEATURES Their Brains could create for a skyscraper. In reality.... few will or are allowed to by price-points that need to be met. Chicago labor will have to be highly or higher-paid Union Workers vs Dubai that imports cheap labor from other parts of Asia to work.

Whether our Sunbelt cities have cheaper Mexican laborers non-Union allowed? I do not know. I already posted a link in a thread on labor cost to build a tower in Asia vs NYC, Chicago or Atlanta. Clearly, in Asia it is cheapest and NYC the costliest with Chicago after NYC and Atlanta next. Seemed in that link if I remember. for the same price-point you got a 80-story in NYC 100-story in Chicago and 120-story in Atlanta.

In Chicago ... the city also gets the developers/builders to spend many millions on extras in improvements, Parks, streets or giving toward low-income investment to be made in the city etc. That probably happens much less in Sunbelt cities.

This link shows the 2018 rendering and podium vs the 2020 one without it. it has one of them changing pictures from 2018 to 2020. The Podium does not look like much of a loss at all. No sure why the tower portion looks different also? the 2020 one does look like the Chicago terracotta looking one vs the 2018? Not sure why.

From the above link is the drawings of the towers originally and the new design here....

https://www.chicagoarchitecture.org/...uo/page-07-36/

Seems like the Hotel was in the 4 story podium and South Tower. The buildings will go from Condos to Apartments now with a increase overall of rentals over number of Condos previously with the Hotel.

I for one just have my fingers crossed it gets built. Clearly, it did not break ground this year. Time will tell how these finished towers will look. Whether terracotta before and gone now or accents? Seems like in reality .... it is not much different in it was not going to be with much decoration as we typically see with older terracotta beauties.

Vista I must say .... does look just like its renderings for the finished product from Grant Park side and River side plus the color. Guess we will see what colors and appearance that the Related twin towers will have if completed.....
The picture of the cladding that you posted a link to was when there was still terracotta cladding on the window frames and on the towers. Now that terracotta has been replaced with "metal panels" that will be painted or "anodized".....

This switch in materials shows why in the renders the contrast and details are so much more rich and crisp in the before image. White terracotta outlines the contours on the buildings giving them a stunning visual presence due to the contrast range with the glass that gives definition to the towers' forms.

As we know from ample evidence of buildings with similar facdes like One Chicago, 110 N. Wacker, Wolf Pont, 150 N. Riverside etc. "silver" colored metal panels blend with glass because there is much less range on the color spectrum. This is why they appear as being all glass walls when the sun hits them or when you are at a certain distance.

Notice how much duller the facade is with the current materials and how much more glass you see making up the towers' look.

BEFORE:



AFTER:



Also, the podium was not the hotel, the podium would have been for parking and amenities like all other podiums. The original plan called for 175 hotel rooms. It would have been a luxury hotel that would have accounted for 18 stories or 225 feet of the 1,100 ft. south tower. Nearby residents complained about vehicle traffic and hotel guests walking the neighborhood among other things and Alderman Reilly restricted the use of a hotel to appease his donors.

Related is a massive commercial real estate developer. They have the funding and rescources to execute terracotta towers if they choose to. Either way, the city telling a developer whatthey can build on private land and forcing them to construct the riverwalk, Dusable Park and include neighborhood opportunity payments is just legal extortion because the city doesn't have the funds for public works so they tax developersd which also leads to less proposals at smaller scales. So all of those jobs, tourists and taxes that would have been generated with a new luxury hotel should have been a no-brainer...


Here is the architect David Childs explaining his design for these towers. Everything he says in this video makes what I am saying completely logical and how someone designing a building in Chicago should feel. He understood the gravitas of putting a landmark building at this prominent location that the city has been waiting for a very long time for something iconic since the Spire collapse. Between Alderman Reilly and Related this video is now irrelevant, they ruined his creative process and intent.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ-J1IWBYNQ
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Old 12-13-2020, 06:24 PM
 
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Again, soooo many towers have come and gone for the Chicago Spire sight. It is almost like it is cursed. Does anyone remember the previous two at least before the two-tower models? One was a mega-tall again even. There are a couple very short videos on YouTube showing it and another one with that Arm crossing LSD.

To pump a point on towers not yet built and the previous rendering now moot.... serves little. I believe it is best to be hopeful for these current ones an still will be sleek, thin and far from a plain box. Time will tell IF it gets started next year or delated another year or 2 even. Same for the Tribune East Supertall approved. At least Chicago One is being built and half-way up.

Since videos of the Old rendering of the twin Related towers is being pushed that is moot.

Here is the "New rendering" Video with no talking. Just scenes of it in the skyline with the proposed final LakeShore East tower showing with the St Regis (formally Vista) and Tribune East Tower if ALL get built. In a previous link IF VIEWED. the look of Terracotta was plain and between the Chicago-Style window. No fancy Wrigley Building decorative intricate exterior. We will see what it ultimate will be.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlxzkrbUUdE

No use being a "Nega-Chicagoan" as in Philly they call a local who is negative on the city or anything.... a "Negadelphian". Yes they have a name for them. and not about politics or alone or new.

To me the city that was restricted the most (without it being height-limits) is San Francisco. Nimbyism preserved old SF basically from destruction. The demand was there remake SF with mostly high-rises and skyscrapers and a cross between Vancouver CA and Hong Kong China looking today.
Think about that one. Do they cry over that? Maybe some might. Most that the COL is so high of course. But there is definitely Truth that no city was restricted by Nimbyism more then San Francisco. IMO.

I remember many supertalls that came proposed and said AWESOME only to have them never be. Plenty though the 80s 90s and into early 2000s. Was not just the Spire that died by the Crash. Just we have to remember..... there is only so much demand in Chicago for office space, condos and Apt living downtown. It is not endless.

So towers that never got built if they were? Some others might never have smaller etc. I look at things as the way they were ordained to be in this reality-world we live. If I could change one thing on Chicago to have altered its fate? I think it would simply have it in a mild winter climate..... I kid you not. Even though it not losing its industrial base so drastically and White-Flight as occurred. I do believe having milder winters would have had the city muct much more in favor and with growth though the years.

Still Chicago needed its history as it is to be what it is. Good and bad and sadly... none of us gets all we want the world to be or in our lifetimes to occur. We still can smell the roses from what we do get and see that Chicago still is a Awesome city that even on C-D is recognized. Despite locals downplay it in soooo many ways vs any other city in its forum. IMO.

I wish all our cities come out of this Pandemic and get back to a normal that is as close to where it was as possible. We still know not everything will be the same or will take a few years. I look forward to seeing the proposed Towers already approved when they become reality. Still I am not going to see everyone as in need of a Glory Tower to compete with Low-wage to build Asian cities with almost no price-points. Also just our Sunbelt cities can build more for their buck and still get by fall .... glass boxes.

Last edited by NoHyping; 12-13-2020 at 06:36 PM..
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Old 12-13-2020, 09:32 PM
 
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Here is one from a year ago on adding Unbult and Cancelled Chicago tall boys if
Chicago had them built and how Chicago would look. CHICAGO IS ALMOST Unrecognizable....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe2vfku1hdw

U like the previous one I posted with the current planned and approved ones built.
I recognize Chicago in that one at least.

The maker of both videos claimed to have a - Unbuilt NYC one and Unbuilt Dubai one to come.
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Old 12-13-2020, 11:02 PM
 
330 posts, read 132,170 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHyping View Post
Again, soooo many towers have come and gone for the Chicago Spire sight. It is almost like it is cursed. Does anyone remember the previous two at least before the two-tower models? One was a mega-tall again even. There are a couple very short videos on YouTube showing it and another one with that Arm crossing LSD. .
I posted the official source video so people could hear David Childs (the architect) himself say what inspired him to design the buildings in the manner he did.

He said: "Chicago has a strong masonry tradition and most imprtantly of all, terracotta."... "It has been a profound material structurally and as a glaze." The form of the towers were inspired by the water of the river and lake.

He says rightfully that: "The people of Chicago have more devotion for architecture than in any other city in the world."

Architecture is as much an art as it is a science. He acknowledges that by stating that all these buildings are for all the people of the city to gather around public spaces and walk by them to enjoy.

A Related executive says "Legacy is crucial" and they "came together to build something special."

Bill Baker (Structural Engineer) says "Chicago is the birthplace of the skyscaper" and S.O.M. has done many of the "landmark" buildings in Chicago so this proposal is appropriate for honoring that tradition.

Ater all that what do you think the architect thought when Related told him shorten your buildings, remove the terracotta, flatten a large percentage of the Chicago-Windows, strip down the decorative and distinctive crown then change the proportions and amount of your unique "waterfall" set-backs that were inspired by the flow of the Chicago River and Lake Michigan?

David Childs, Related, Bill Baker and every enthusiast are well aware these buildings now belong on a tier not of the highest standards in design. They were value engineered, this never produces a better product. This is the equivalent of having Jeanne Gang change Vista's frustrum shapes to rectangles and change the gradient glass to solid green panels.

It is fine for someone to believe that these buildings are still "stunning" or "original."

What they are not however is the best versions of what was possible.

Look below at the elegance and beauty that was sacrificed my friend.



Lastly, Chicago is not your average skyscraper/high-rise market. They are in our veins. Look at the explosion in Fulton Market. For a city of its size we constantly punch way above our weight-class. There are multiple multi-billion dollar mega-project proposals currently. I believe 6 and counting spanning in cost from $3 billion to $8 billion. So saying there's only so much office or resiential needed doesn't really apply when we are being showered with developments.

As for cost of skyscrapers this cycle:

Vista - $1 billion
One Chicago - $870 million
110 N.Wacker - $800 million
BMO Tower - $900 million
Salesforce Tower - $800 million ($1.4 billion in total for Wolf Point)
Tribune East - $1 billion+ (projected)

The original Chicago Spire would have been $1.5 billion in 2007 dollars, 2,000' tall and a bold never attempted twisting design by a "starchitect." That is Chicago ambition pre-2008 recession. Trump Tower was designed by Smith and Gill (Burj KHalifa) at nearly $900 million.....It isn't as if Chicago can't turn profits or these developers would never even attempt this level of investment. My earlier point was New York always had more demand and money than us but they still didn't outright embarass us architectually like today. Our designs between 2000-2008 were world class and creatively beyond NY's proposals. We were;iving up to our innovative history back then.

Below is the original pre-2008 recession Waldorf Astoria proposal that was $610 million and 1,200' tall. Notice how for the time the shape was at least refreshing from a standard box. Like I said it doesn't require billions to make an interesting design.



My hope is that we will see form and materials matter again. That we will we see sculpture again and expressive architects like Jeanne Gang that pulled off Aqua, Solstice and Vista will get commssions to produce their visionary work in our world-renowned skyscraper gallery instead of safe, budget friendly corporate firms swallowing up all the city in their wake like what has transpired over the last decade. For the money being spent these towers could easily have some bold structure, some brass/copper elements, some elaborate crowns, varying glass patterns and colors, more dramatic set-backs or radical shapes etc. More experimental concepts in general.

Finally below is an example of simply mailing it in by refining a building so much you lose all visual interest or originality. They went from a potential statement tower by turning a Miesian box on its head to a building void of any architectual distinction.

This is the Essex Hotel addition tower that cost $240 million so we aren't talking billions to have ultimate luxury or needing wealthy foriegners to make a project feasible. They just removed the intersting elements like always. to build a safe, predictable, low-risk structure that goes unnoticed by most and will never make an architectual magazine.

Before:



After:

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Old 12-13-2020, 11:59 PM
 
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Default This is getting too passive aggressive in towers. originals HOT and redos CRAP Cancelled ones BEST OF ALL comments.

You can win that the new related towers are just a fraction of their original glory and you want credit for making sure all know this. I like to go by the reality of what is. I rather not dwell on what almost was or what we think is subpar after any change. After TOO MANY DECADES or realizing MOST TALL BOYS WILL NOT GET BUILT.... when one comes - I APPLAUD and can have a bit of a disappointment if a downsize or change came and that I rather the older rendering?

Still I LIVE IN REALITY OF CHICAGO IS DESTINED TO GET WHAT IT DOES GET and DREAMS of even FRANK LLOYD WRIGHT'S MILE HIGH MEGA-TALL CONCEPT sooooo long ago conceived by him.... did not get built. It is only a reality in books. No use have Chicago lessened by it. or the Spire or other mega-talls not built or a super-tall got downsized again.... and woe is Chicago..... BUT THIS IS LIFE. EVERY CITY HAS THESE hopes and canceled towers and yes it is kinda a letdown.... yet something else will give us some excitement finally when it comes. I think I will like the Related Twin towers at the Spire sight. Love them remains to be seen. I think they will still look awesome in the skyline as the video showed.

I like old -style terracotta that is truly decorative. If it is a plan block it is not a key point and merely a veneer that is decorative and not even a fire-proof skin aspect why it is used as it once was. AGAIN I AM SAYING YOU WIN . So this Related building can be left to a WE SHALL SEE and I merely have my fingers crossed for it getting built and not caught-up on ..... that it must still have terracotta to be so much more stunning. I am fine with it scaled down and you want the length back....if no terracotta and its size makes it a INFERIOR AND INSIGNIFICANT ADDITION TO CHICAGO'S SKYLINE AND HUGE LETDOWN...... our complains will not change what is. Heck, I WANT THE TRUMP TOWER TALLER LOL. No I want it to be the Burj Khalifa SOM one ...... I am not getting it and to complain years later serves nothing.

They say NEVER STOP DREAMING and MAKE NO SMALL PLANS. Still reality of today, price-points and Chicago not the center of the Universe has it do the best that developers will fund and Architects can design into it. So far most come out to my satisfaction and few larger ones are carbon copies.... still many provide contrast to their neighbors and that diversity is better then none.

Do I think the new Bank of America name one is special just built? No of course not.
Do I think the new Sales Force Named Tower to go along the river will be the most spectacular choice? Of course not.
Do think the 3 towers will still look stunning and river-walk added .... yes.
Do I think the BMO Tower is a stunner also? .... no I do not. It will be a addition that serves Chicago well.

A new STUNNER might still come in future years? Hope one does that even you will have a BIG ONE.....
West of the River from the Loop is filling in nice despite no huge knockouts. The West Loop still getting a lot. Just read a 47-story one planned for along the Kennedy. We shall see if it gets built. I do not expect anything special.... no. a building with a purpose yes.

Like I said.... I like the scale of the planned and approved towers if they all get built currently? I think Chicago still did OK. Guess that is me. I like Chicago more for things other then a few new buildings. They still add something that serves the city and function of its people. All we can ask in reality. Guess you will have to wait a few more years to see if you can Pop a Big one finally and a NEW MEGA-BOY DEFINES CHICAGO AGAIN.

I think the going up currently - Chicago One will be satisfactory and again fit with the skyline quite well. Chicago's mix of Old and New and all eras combine to give us what Chicago has and other cities miss that mark..... A downtown Houston that tore so much of its old Houston..... will not have that. Its 70s 80s towers were blander then Chicago's and fortress types. with nothing ground-level and some darn ugly HUUUUGE BLAND PARKING GARAGES. Where the few old Houston attributes still exist? They are the most vibrant on the block.

At least most still see the St Regis (Vista) as a stunning building despite some thinking it missed a mark of a ORGASM. So be it. To the OP it is nice and Great he started a thread to say just that.....
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Old 12-14-2020, 03:12 PM
 
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The before of the Essex hotel is amazing. WOW!
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Old 12-16-2020, 08:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dtcbnd03 View Post
The before of the Essex hotel is amazing. WOW!
Absolutely!

That original Essex would have been a stunner. That is the type of distinctive design that would turn heads and become a must stop for architecture heads. The elevated porch setting with six-stories of exposed columns would have created quite the outdoor restuarant/bar space too. That building dominating the historic Michigan Ave. streetwall would have become an instant icon. The facade being made up of varying shades of blue and clear glass with 'X' bracing would have made an amazing backdrop from the park.

On another wish list note Zaha Hadid's concept for the Spire site might have been a little more visually appealing than David Childs' original terracotta towers proposed for the site. They give me a Futurist 'Marina City' vibe. The Facade looks extremely experimental and unique. I wish these would have been a real proposal somehwere in the city. Something in this realm of innovativion/ambition is the level I imagined Wolf Point aspiring to before being slapped back to reality when the plan became public.

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Old 12-17-2020, 12:20 AM
 
1,073 posts, read 291,013 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronWright View Post
Absolutely!

That original Essex would have been a stunner. That is the type of distinctive design that would turn heads and become a must stop for architecture heads. The elevated porch setting with six-stories of exposed columns would have created quite the outdoor restuarant/bar space too. That building dominating the historic Michigan Ave. streetwall would have become an instant icon. The facade being made up of varying shades of blue and clear glass with 'X' bracing would have made an amazing backdrop from the park.

On another wish list note Zaha Hadid's concept for the Spire site might have been a little more visually appealing than David Childs' original terracotta towers proposed for the site. They give me a Futurist 'Marina City' vibe. The Facade looks extremely experimental and unique. I wish these would have been a real proposal somehwere in the city. Something in this realm of innovativion/ambition is the level I imagined Wolf Point aspiring to before being slapped back to reality when the plan became public.
Now I call them the Alligator skin buildings. It is amazing how many buildings came and went for this sight since the Spire. This one was one I never saw. I think there were 2 others also I believe. I couldn't find renderings for this post except for the Gateway Tower below .... If the current ones by Related do not get built..... I think the sight is cursed....

Plain terracotta does not make or break it for me. It was still rather plain... just maybe more white then metallic-like? Time will tell. Some links still said terracotta accents for the final renderings.... We shall see hopefully. It was not gonna be Wrigley terracotta stock.

Remember this one in 2016 a 150-story one - Gateway Tower for the former Spire sight - pictures in link ...

https://www.dezeen.com/2016/06/07/ge...go-spire-site/

Remember this one for the Old Post Office sight in 2011- a 120-story Tower and 4 other smaller ones ....

https://www.chicagoarchitecture.org/...ll-skyscraper/

People forget that .... every city has Towers planned and approved that never got built. Chicago is just another. Even mighty Dubai and NYC ....
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