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Old 12-22-2020, 06:19 PM
 
4,793 posts, read 6,612,154 times
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I care much less about height than I do innovation and design. Too many generic tall glass rectangles across the country.
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Old 12-23-2020, 10:10 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
329 posts, read 266,997 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiruko View Post
I will never sympathize with the library-aligned groups who are demanding prime public parkland while there is so much bombed-out and desolate land available in this city and the Chicagoland area that is begging for investment and redevelopment. All of this is being requested for the benefit of what is ultimately a private organization worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Can't the University of Chicago acquire or provide some land as SMU did for the Bush Center? This is just a bonkers, hypocritical, and unethical proposal.
I agree with this completely!! It is disappointing that certain groups are trying to push for the site on our public park land. Meanwhile, there are several bombed out blocks of commercial areas in neighboring Woodlawn that could be a far better location for the library.

Also, does anyone know if the 24-foot grates will still be installed on the blow through floor of the St. Regis/Vista Tower? Does this mean the blow through floor essentially have metal screens to help it blend with the floors above and below?

"The blow-through floor will include 24-foot vertical grates spaced out around the perimeter, matching the window colors of surrounding floors."

Source:

https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2019/06...oor-wind-sway/
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Old 12-23-2020, 10:23 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
329 posts, read 266,997 times
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Ok, I believe I found the answer to my question. For anyone else who is curious about this as well...


The steel grates have already been installed. I misinterpreted the article in my last post to mean that screens were going to be hung from the grates pictured below. That is not the case.



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Old 12-23-2020, 10:20 PM
 
330 posts, read 131,354 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHyping View Post
I will just say that that Tower I remember seeing shown.... and I think we can be pretty sure that is that round-topped tower was built? That One Chicago probably would not be...... I think One Chicago is more Chicago looking.... I don't dislike the one that got cancelled. Still a GLASS Tower that has the TOP be a different slant and appearance given to it. Does seem Shinier then anything around it. I still applaud One Chicago under Construction during this pandemic year. I still think it will be a great addition to the skyline.
Symmetry was well aware of the One Chicago Square proposal. Their building at 740 N. Rush would have had a hotel component which 'One Chicago' does not and also timeshare units. Before selecting a site, months if not years of due dilligence goes into it. Their market analysis must have revealed it was a worthy investment opportunity. One does not necessarily cancel the other out. Plenty of large towers have been contructed within close proximity over a short period.

This was a just a case of Reilly's own personal grievances and NIMBY pressure. He does not want a hotel there or a tall/dense tower on that site over alleged "traffic congestion." He said the developers can come back to him when they want to build something in the 15 story range.

This is a politician playing urban planner/city engineer and architect. None of these professions are his expertise. He was an executive for AT&T. A parcel of land in downtown Chicago or any other neighborhood should not be held captive to the imagination, desires, limitations or wishes of one individual who can arbitrarily wield his sword of denial however he sees fit.

Reilly moved to have the existing greystones landmarked and sent a message to all future developers that this site is off limits. The developers even offered to save the historic buildings and incorporate them into the base of the new tower. It is ridiculous for a city like Chicago to perform these maneuvers which are the antithesis of the "make no little plans" mantra that they never hesitate to quote when promoting something that they achieve. These acts are directly in conflict with the cty's stated goals of increasing the population, growing tourism, remaining a global architectual destination, creating jobs and increasing the tax base.

So in the end Chicago as a whole loses becuase a tower that would have had a significant presence in the skyline and generated more street activity was denied out of purely subjective reasoning on a micro-level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHyping View Post
Lincoln Yards or the 78 are developments ... is over DECADES. 20-30 year even till complete and we know how things can change no matter what is forced today. Look at LAKESHORE EAST. It too what like 40-yrs already till finally the last tower might get built. Sooooo many architectural style changes over them decades and do you think they planned the towers decades down the road? No it was a process of demand and investors and still worked over time. These projects will be totally different over years of what actually gets built.
The difference between Lakeshore East and Lincoln Yards/The 78 is that Lakeshore East wasn't put under restrictive heights that stopped an Aqua or Vista from being built. They weren't told that they could only build half as many buildings and to double the size of the park. Lakeshore East was conceived of at a time when residents didn't have the power and organization that they do today. That was a time before this irrational fear of height swept throughout the city and developers were seen as trying to improve the city rather than ruin it like today.

Lincoln Yards has a max height of 650' while The 78 is 950'. Lincoln Yards was stripped of building a soccer stadium, entertainment venues and taller buildings with more density. Dearborn Park residents had the L station moved away from the original location that made the most sense because they basically have a gated community in the middle of a skyscraper city that is growing around them and they didn't want to be infringed upon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHyping View Post
On the Gold Coast.... I do not worry about that neighborhood for the most part. It still gets towers and I wish they had the Preservationist and some nimby's in the 60s 70s when sooooo many awesome mansions were destroyed for high-rise boxes..... sorry.
I like the Gold Coast mansions and streetscapes too but what makes it unique for Chicago is the mid-block-high-rises that soar above 4-story buildings and creates a "mega-city" juxtaposition in scale. They break up the monotony of all identical rooflines and remind you that you are in a major city.

The 40 story tower that they sued to stop was fronting Lakeshore Drive and would have been directly next to another 40 story tower from the 1970's. It was nowhere near Astor St.

The denial of 1130 N. State for being too tall and too dense was on a major corridor as well. It would have replaced a Barnes & Noble. These are the opportunities aldermen should be jumping at. High-end apartments geared towards younger, high-earning individuals and a 465' modern tower to contrast the traditional architecture and mid-century modern filler buildings. There's a stagnant plataeu between Oak and North. The developers have now cut over 130' for the redesign to match the neighbors but since Covid, who knows. Had they received approval it would be nearly completed by now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHyping View Post
I would say on the Lucas Museum.... I myself thought it would be great for Chicago. Still I HATED the design for the Chicago one. Lucas had different designs for Chi, LA and SF. LA ultimately won and I like its design much better then Chicago's was. We do know it was because Lucas wife is a Chicagoan that Chicago was even considered and his wife swayed him. Really, what ties did Lucas have with Chicago and his movie making to otherwise even give Chicago a look???? Still I agree it is sad we lost it. Just can't blame city government here.
I don't blame the city for losing the Lucas Museum, Rahm Emanuel fought hard to make it a reality. It was "Friends of the Park" using the Gold Coast residents' tactics and suing to delay them into giving up which he did. So we still have a beautiful man-made parking lot in tact to support auto-dependency like usual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHyping View Post

My oh my
.... ole 6-corners... I remember it well. Shopped in the ole Sears that was there and OMG it held on till 2018.... last in Chicago to go. My Great Aunt worked years there and retired from there with a pension even I believe..... before employees would end up loosing theirs as other firms in the 80s. Long time ago now.

I looked-up info on this - 10-story Senior Center/grocery store sight across the street and read got delays in 2019 with outgoing Alderman and zoning wrangling and some nimbyism ... but this link from JUNE 2020. SAYS IT GOT APPROVED THIS YEAR??? Seems all gave in eventually.

From the link.
- After years of delay made longer by a political changing of the guard, the “eyesore” of a hole in Chicago’s once-thriving Six Corners shopping district may finally be filled.
- The Chicago City Council on Wednesday approved “The Point at Six Corners” a day after the Zoning Committee endorsed the $130 million project. In June 2020.
The Point at Six Corners wins City Council approval.
- The 10-story complex at Milwaukee and Cicero avenues and Irving Park Road includes a 258-unit residential building for senior citizens, 215 parking spaces and a 45,000 square-foot retail complex anchored by an Aldi.
Six Corners may get developed but I just brought it up to show how broken and anti-developer we have become in Chicago. Another nightmare tale of aldermen using their dictator powers to either defeat or add long delays to progress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHyping View Post
On Chicago having zoning for neighborhoods preventing high-rises by zoning. STILL I UNDERSTAND IT and AGREE..... for preserving these great neighborhoods with still great housing. Now for main corridors/streets like of course Milwaukee Av that has gotten them and some other.... yes more then not. Still OLD CHICAGO does not need to be RE-URBANIED for NYC DENSITY (still plenty of single homes the Boroughs of NYC where we think everything is wall to wall tenement-styles.... it is not. Zoning downtown is where the South Loop and West Loop have the sky is the limit. Does not mean everything will get built. More might there of course....

I once gave in a thread how TORONTO PROTECTS ITS SINGLE-HOME NEIGHBORHOODS WITH ZONING and gave links. That city has had a steady ride without problems of American cities since the 1960s. It is as our Sunbelt booming cities. Yet it still struggles to get a supertall and many came and went there too. Its problem for decades was mediocre - blue-green glass towers that look alike. Again, this JUST CHICAGO is VERY UNTRUE cancelled towers and zoning restrictions.
Neighborhoods like Wicker Park, Hyde Park, Lincoln Park etc. should progress into building more mutli-family mid and high-rise buildings. When you limit buildings to 4 stories and allow deconversions to single-family you are obviously capping how many residents can live in an area. This makes rents go up and puts more property tax burden across fewer people. More height and density puts more people on the streets and in the parks. It creates more demand for retail and commercial uses, more amenities, more public-transit use, more eyes on the street so more safety etc. This creates more buzz and visitors that leads to more permanent residents who want to be where the action is. That leads to a larger, denser population that is more active all hours.

Artificially controlling supply through zoning keeps prices relatively astronomical and lessens the scale of the cityscape. It keeps populations down etc. I don't know an urban enthusiast that doesn't see the benefit of volume, height, density and isn't anti-sprawl. More urban intensity should be the goal of a healthy city that promotes diversity and inclusion. 10-20 story buildings sprouting up in Wicker Park along with infastructure investments would be amazing to see and the urban experience would be enhanced ten-fold.

I would like to see smaller footprints and more height instead of these sprawling 5-6 story Logan Square Mega-Mall type developments that span blocks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHyping View Post
Some Urban planners and staunch Urban lovers..... ABHOR PODIUM TOWERS.... seems you and others have no problem as long as its LONG SLEEK TALL BABY AND BIGGER THE BETTER.... maybe I am just too old to think Bigger is ALWAYS BETTER .... and any scale back is OMG @#$#^%^% Well, it is common in many cities.
I loathe podiums. I've said time and again that they are hideous and anti-urban. They promote above ground car storages, blank walls that kill the street vibe and create gaps in the skyline by setting towers apart from one another while the podiums span the blocks. If a podium is a must then it should have active uses at the very least. I would ban above ground parking.

Worst of all they eat up land that could have been utilized for another building to generate more density and uses.

I talked about New York towers engaging the street much better and active uses on on the second and third floors give pedestrians an inviting environment. To see activity inside of buildings and lights from street level offers transparency that Chicago lacks with all these terrible podiums. I just would rather have the original Spire site design for the original set-back proportions, terra-cotta, crown and height. Even if it meant a podium came attached in that particular case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHyping View Post
Most cities though still crave what Chicago got..... like I said. In the Philly forum they applaud virtually anything new since so many have loooooon delay and cancellations and buildings tore down only to get nothing new there. Also the bigger complaint is mediocre high-rises when they also want something grand and less glassy/boxy. A Houston applauds any box built.... No ZONING and Just have enough parking.... good to go. Did they get their Supertalls? Got a couple close though. No zoning has developers no incentive to do street-level attributes and that is that.
See here is where I differ. I don't pat Chicago on the back because most U.S. cities don't get as many buildings as Chicago or as tall. I evaluate Chicago on its own tier as being historically the most innovative architectual and engineering city in the world for a long time. Here is where the standards should be much higher than comparing it to sun-belt cities or Toronto and Seattle for example.

I realize every city loses proposals. Financing, markets, economy and NIMBY's can make it difficult or impossible for certain developments to come to fruition. Yes, every city has that.

So knowing the reality of the hardships that comes with construction from natural forces anywhere in the country you'd think Chicago would appreciate the proposals that it does get and are on a world class level and would not get in its own way by allowing aldermen to single-handedly kill a proposal. Or dragging developers in front of neighborhood activists for years that basically have veto power to tell developers what is allowed in their community.

You would assume that Chicago having the issues that it does in many areas to compete with the coasts and the sun-belt would do more to strenghthen it's greatest asset which is tall buildings and urbanism. You would think that a city that relies so much on architecture for its brand would work with developers to deliver the absolute best product in regard to design and materials. Instead they squander this role by creating guidelines in Fulton Market that makes almost every building below a restrictive height with identical facade materials and a faux warehouse aesthetic. Same for other neighborhoods like the Gold Coast or Lincoln Park where it is design by committee and any building over a certain height is an automatic no.

One would hope that when a super-tall is proposed to line Grant Park they aren't told by a landmark commission that it doesn't respect the Michigan Ave. street wall. Just allow the requested 200 feet and the result is our city has another visual icon with maximum impact and a unique design to add to the legacy, postcards and tours.

Let the market dictate Polish Triangle in Wicker Park is going to become a high-rise cluster that would create an outpost of high-rises instead of restricting the desnity and height of a world class urban neighborhood looking to improve by denying every such proposal.

When a 12 story building is proposed in Ravenswood, don't shorten it to 6. When a traditional courtyard building is proposed at 8 stories in Uptown, don't tell them it's too dense so an uninspiring 5 story box replaces it.

Don't allow above ground parking podiums, don't require parking minimums come with towers. Invest in L extenstions. etc,

Most importantly, tell the suburbanites that are squatting in our city to move to their bucolic environment and quit imposing their small-minded ways on a global city. Decrease footprints, increase heights, grow neighborhood populations and make generational public works investments.

Eventually the people who want quaint tree-lined streets where the largest obstruction is 4-stories and private communities in the middle of cities will fade as a new mindset emerges that will attract people moving to Chicago for the pace, diversity, opportunity, hustle and bustle, size, height and scale that can only be found in New York.

Look at the 606 trail and its popularity. Naturally you'd think that large developments would follow and start popping up next to it and over it like the High-Line in New York. Chicago's version however is governed by NIMBY'S and aldermen with powers that abuse them so we aren't seeing high-rises follow the trail. We immediately saw them want to put a moratorium on construction near the 606 "so nobody is displaced." This is another way to keep a city stagnant and on the opposite path of the stated goals to surpass 3 million again like I said previously is allegedly the ambition. Nothing tall or visually impactful will ever be built along the 606 trail as it is in full-control of the neighborhood groups that it runs through. It could have been a chance to give Chicago a major urban corridor of beautiful high-rises like the High-Line. The projects that were built along the 606 were all very modest in scale.

We won't see the trail snake through the middle of a 40 story condo building or have a 30 story hotel with a restaurant and bar cantilevered off the side of the building that overlooks the people walking and biking. You won't be canyonized by towers along the side streets. We don't see the same quality of landscaping and public art along the path. There won't be sections with glass walkways to see the activity on the streets below you as you walk. There won't be the glass sidewalls, avant-garde sculptural seating or changing materials to walk over that present a totally different look and feel as you traverse.

What keeps all of this from happening other than objection to progress and restrictions placed on land? In other words zoning is used as a tool to keep the city how residents want it to remain and not for building the greatest metropolis possible for future generations.

Last edited by IronWright; 12-23-2020 at 11:31 PM..
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Old 12-29-2020, 09:49 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
332 posts, read 280,711 times
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IronWright is preaching. Whew
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Old 01-03-2021, 08:18 PM
 
Location: The Largest East Coast Island
248 posts, read 61,204 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert9 View Post
Nice tower but still sad how much we have fallen. Other places around the globe including here in America with New York keep building the worlds tallest towers and we still have not even surpassed our own Sears Tower which goes all the way back to 1974!!
While I'd love to see Chicago build more ultra-tall, the ones in New York are mostly bland and uninspiring pencil towers.

And besides, the Vista Tower to me exudes the same energy as the supertall, ultra luxury NYC towers like 432 Park, CP Tower, etc. But it actually looks nicer...
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Old 01-04-2021, 10:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minnomaboidenapolis View Post
While I'd love to see Chicago build more ultra-tall, the ones in New York are mostly bland and uninspiring pencil towers.

And besides, the Vista Tower to me exudes the same energy as the supertall, ultra luxury NYC towers like 432 Park, CP Tower, etc. But it actually looks nicer...
Vista is heavily dependent upon select angles and lighting conditions to showcase its form and gradient. From most vantage points it appears as a dull green blob and from the south the black strips of louvres look awkward.

It is an excellent tower from one of the greatest architects and is certainly expressive but it has quite a few weaknesses.


111 W. 57th is super innovative with a tiny footprint, radically tapering form and clad in terracotta and brass.

9 Dekalb in Brooklyn is a Neo-Gothic masterpiece that again utilizes brass fins and has one of the nicest crowns of any building in modern times.

15 Central Park West is comprised of actual limestone and is as fine of an example of expertly crafted Postmodernism you will find anywhere. One Bennett park in Chicago which is similar was also designed by Stern but is precast which makes all the difference.

432 Park Ave. is a Miesian box but stands alone in the fact that is soars 1,400' on an incredibly small footprint making its proportion unique from all the other minimalist Miesian knockoffs.

New York towers are sculptural, ornate, utilize natural stone, brass, bronze, copper and are reimagining forms. Many expose structural elements in their designs. Even their glass towers experiment with breaking up monotony by incorporating different patterns using varying shades/tones and multiple curtain walls for the same façade.

There is no comparison to Chicago's blue-glass-slabs that have dominated the last decade.
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Old 01-04-2021, 06:50 PM
 
Location: The Largest East Coast Island
248 posts, read 61,204 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronWright View Post
Vista is heavily dependent upon select angles and lighting conditions to showcase its form and gradient. From most vantage points it appears as a dull green blob and from the south the black strips of louvres look awkward.

It is an excellent tower from one of the greatest architects and is certainly expressive but it has quite a few weaknesses.


111 W. 57th is super innovative with a tiny footprint, radically tapering form and clad in terracotta and brass.

9 Dekalb in Brooklyn is a Neo-Gothic masterpiece that again utilizes brass fins and has one of the nicest crowns of any building in modern times.

15 Central Park West is comprised of actual limestone and is as fine of an example of expertly crafted Postmodernism you will find anywhere. One Bennett park in Chicago which is similar was also designed by Stern but is precast which makes all the difference.

432 Park Ave. is a Miesian box but stands alone in the fact that is soars 1,400' on an incredibly small footprint making its proportion unique from all the other minimalist Miesian knockoffs.

New York towers are sculptural, ornate, utilize natural stone, brass, bronze, copper and are reimagining forms. Many expose structural elements in their designs. Even their glass towers experiment with breaking up monotony by incorporating different patterns using varying shades/tones and multiple curtain walls for the same façade.

There is no comparison to Chicago's blue-glass-slabs that have dominated the last decade.
While most of what you say is true, the New York towers, like you mention about Vista, require special angles and lighting for all those details to shine. From a distance or on an overcast day, they are just about as boring as Chicago's blue glass slabs.
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Old 01-04-2021, 09:20 PM
 
1,056 posts, read 285,512 times
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If one wants to see blue-green boxy.... check out Toronto. Even Miami has gotten some and I rather see Miami stayed all white towers. I like it that way.

Chicago has the component of buildings come together in a perspective that seems to fall into place and add viewing vistas that create the views like ordained to be that way.

When you realize.... it is not all about all glory towers that are first in design, or tallest and most chisled. You realize Chicago's sweet spot is how it all falls into place in vistas and a feel of granduer. Even roof-to bars provide visitors awesome views they do not forget.

How even Trump Tower centers the river vistas and Big John owns the vistas from the North shore ...... Impressive nevertheless. Still.... even in 1969 when the Hancock was completed.... it seemed like a armless blunt structure. Somehow .... even Water Tower Place came next door framed it with the old Playboy building and it was as ordained by the gods.l suddenly as added impresiveness.

The River forms all these eras of styles also.... Boxes as black to greenish, corn cobs to White Wrigley. The St Regis (Vista) still fits for the color palet. I still luv the NBC Tower. Just street-level it lacks.... Chicago still does not have same same colors and built same eras of towers that creates ordinary views..... Chicago just stayed a mixture of eras like in every view. NYC can too. Still such a mass without the front lawn of Chicago's parks(though NYC's Central apark is impresive in views too) and blue waters of Lake Michigan with yatchts and none industrial Piers even .... All provide what visitors note as some of the greates Urban views if any cire in the Nation.....

Visitors note Chicago's granduer. It still created spikes with supertalls and lower that only NYC has also. Seeing it from thw lake or coming in from other directions .... they still manage it also. Adding the Nema and others in that location add it viewed from the South his spiking effect too.

So Chicago lacks little in all these attributes with all things considered. Tourist vlogs on Youtube pre-2000 and even a few during .... give plenty of complements. Drone users LUV Chicago vistas. Even places they should not fly. Plenty of them on YouTube in vidios too.
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Old 01-05-2021, 10:10 AM
 
330 posts, read 131,354 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minnomaboidenapolis View Post
While most of what you say is true, the New York towers, like you mention about Vista, require special angles and lighting for all those details to shine. From a distance or on an overcast day, they are just about as boring as Chicago's blue glass slabs.
45 Broad St. This design is regal with bronze detailing that culminates in a decorative crown that is unmistakably neo-Art Deco. Unlike One Chicago and Wolf Point South it doesn't simply incorporate stepped set-backs and vertical fins then claim to be Art Deco inspired. This building actually goes the extra mile and uses materials and patterns that defined Art Deco's style. This is light years beyond what Chicago is building which has given up its architectural identity.

This tower and 9 Dekalb both would have made much better tributes to the Tribune building than what Chicago's Smith & Gill proposed for Tribune East.

45 Broad St.



130 Williams is a dark colored hand-cast textured concrete with bronze detailing. The design has arches of differing shapes and scale which switch to open air large recessed balconies as it rises. Each floor flares out from the one below to form pointed edges. Again this design is light years beyond anything Chicago is building.

130 Williams



There is no doubt that New York has clearly become the leading frontier for architectural expression and innovation. Chicago was once home to the greatest collection of architects and structural engineers but that was some time ago. The scene has been watered down by being dominated by Mies Van Der Rohe's disciples who continue to use floor-to-ceiling glass curtain walls as the main design language in a box/slab form.

Last edited by IronWright; 01-05-2021 at 10:20 AM..
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