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Old 12-29-2020, 07:14 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
2,469 posts, read 946,728 times
Reputation: 1952

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Everyone has a choice.

Despite what is "normal" in their culture, community, family.
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Old 12-29-2020, 07:33 PM
 
Location: Chicago, Little Village
4,478 posts, read 7,913,680 times
Reputation: 3393
Quote:
Originally Posted by G in MP View Post
Nearly all immigrant ethnic groups have a few things in common. Take the indians for instance, you got east indians immigrating here, a few years later they got a business going, a house in the burbs, and pretty much guaranteed the kids will be college-bound and onto great careers.

Why is that? Well primarily, it's because they have a strong family structure, which is within a strong community structure. It's simply unacceptable to have a slacker son in the family, let alone a criminal...it a pox on the family within the community. Or a man abandoning his family? An unmarried indian woman raising kids from multiple fathers? Unthinkable...what would the community think? I'm sure all that happens, but it's rare because of the resulting stigma within the community. The entire community is geared toward upward mobility primarily because that brings status within it, while not being upwardly mobile lowers said status. You'll see exactly that in basically every other ethnic group as well.

But take the reverse approach, normalize criminality, normalize single-mother parenting, normalize sitting on the dole...ain't no "jobs" gonna fix jack, sorry. But all that stuff really started AFTER the civil rights movement, btw. You guys ever hear of Thomas Sowell? Brilliant man. He's got some interesting things to say about black america, as a black american.
Well, I submit you got to start somewhere. And even if certain groups don't want to work, at least we can elevate the standard of living for those who do, versus handing all our wealth to China. As you point out, there's no shortage of those who want to work.
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Old 12-30-2020, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Lake County
76 posts, read 60,028 times
Reputation: 61
Oh man, sure wish I could edit my last post, it sounds like an indictment of all of black america. Didn't mean to do that, I was just talking about the underclass in Chicago, since that's what the topic seems to be here. I've encountered enough normal middle-class black people that are NOT like that.
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Old 12-30-2020, 08:44 AM
 
Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
2,469 posts, read 946,728 times
Reputation: 1952
G in MP, good morning. I think you did a good job of clarifying yourself.

As you notice, I said, EVERYONE has a choice.

I am not specifying any skin color, economic situation, geographic location, etc.



I was just having this discussion with my co-worker here in the jail. I believe it is fair to say that anyone that is incarcerated is here based on actions that they chose to do/ chose NOT to do.

And people who are able to have employment IN the jail have that opportunity based on actions they chose to do/ chose NOT to do.

99.99%...

If you had any idea what I was into as a youth, you'd be amazed that I work IN a jail... So LUCK DOES play a part in the equation. That is the .01$, although I can assure you in my life it felt like it was 90% of luck that kept me alive and out of jail as a youth!

So now, in addition to social work, I teach martial arts to give back to society. Youth need role models, direction, and need to be taught empathy, control and respect if it is not being learned in the home.
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Old 12-30-2020, 11:35 AM
 
2,151 posts, read 1,076,916 times
Reputation: 2848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Jay View Post
G in MP, good morning. I think you did a good job of clarifying yourself.

As you notice, I said, EVERYONE has a choice.

I am not specifying any skin color, economic situation, geographic location, etc.



I was just having this discussion with my co-worker here in the jail. I believe it is fair to say that anyone that is incarcerated is here based on actions that they chose to do/ chose NOT to do.

And people who are able to have employment IN the jail have that opportunity based on actions they chose to do/ chose NOT to do.

99.99%...

If you had any idea what I was into as a youth, you'd be amazed that I work IN a jail... So LUCK DOES play a part in the equation. That is the .01$, although I can assure you in my life it felt like it was 90% of luck that kept me alive and out of jail as a youth!

So now, in addition to social work, I teach martial arts to give back to society. Youth need role models, direction, and need to be taught empathy, control and respect if it is not being learned in the home.

We could go a LONG way into revitalizing the west side by revitalizing corrections, of which 95% of in this country remain lock and feed policy.
If you've studied(as I have)how incarceration functions in many European countries, you'll know they focus on rehabilitation; thereby lowering the frequent flyer rate.
In Germany there aren't really county jails, even minor offenses are sent to prisons until they are either convicted or make bail. This affords them the same educational/trade skill opportunities as sentenced inmates. If Cook county jail functioned in the same capacity, our crime rate would go down.
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Old 12-30-2020, 12:09 PM
 
1,030 posts, read 272,576 times
Reputation: 728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunbiz1 View Post
We could go a LONG way into revitalizing the west side by revitalizing corrections, of which 95% of in this country remain lock and feed policy.
If you've studied(as I have)how incarceration functions in many European countries, you'll know they focus on rehabilitation; thereby lowering the frequent flyer rate.
In Germany there aren't really county jails, even minor offenses are sent to prisons until they are either convicted or make bail. This affords them the same educational/trade skill opportunities as sentenced inmates. If Cook county jail functioned in the same capacity, our crime rate would go down.
I would add that in this Nation. We remove and erase a blemish as Bankruptcy after 7-yrs and a new start. For someone who had a criminal record even when young..... it is with them FOR LIFE.

Many Companies have strict hiring practices that having a record will eliminate you from being hired. This for low-skilled warehousing/distribution even. Then while you work a strict speed and performance grading by computer must be kept up. Of course missing days is another reason to fire. Add fear of UNIONS still prevalent for a more hire and fire environment of many companies. A certain turnover rate is kept for that.... that is totally true.

So my point is any digression like a old criminal issue..... is a lifetime blemish that many find much harder to craw out from under especially in low-skilled jobs by larger Corporations. How it differs from Europe? I do not know. Just that here in the US. We can give rehabilitation to a criminal. Still it is with them for life. Small blemishes also WITH THEM FOR LIFE.... just lying and not telling a future employer of it.... if found out is grounds for instant firing.

So that is a factor that aids and can fuel even a underclass we keep growing.... a old drug record even is a criminal record for life.....
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Old 12-30-2020, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
2,469 posts, read 946,728 times
Reputation: 1952
Sunbiz1, good day.

Yes, I've worked in social work for 25 years, and now 11 years in the Court/Jail system.

I believe that counseling, substance abuse treatment, anger management, etc. are necessary to curb the behaviors that lead to arrests.

I also believe that many crimes that are not violent nor involve crimes against person's property (such as possession of drug charges, and even prostitution) do not need to be criminalized to the degree that they are.

Nonetheless, if gang culture is glamorized, and people do not have the respect for others and are putting graffiti on walls and breaking bottles in the streets, NO ONE form the outside is going to go to those areas and open businesses and NO possible clientele are going to consume from those businesses.

You always hear me mentioning my love for Edison Park and Lincoln Square. Well those are WHITE-MAJORITY areas; but if I saw stores and homes not kept up and garbage and glass in the streets, I would NOT GO THERE!
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Old 12-30-2020, 01:32 PM
 
2,688 posts, read 901,228 times
Reputation: 7720
Quote:
Originally Posted by G in MP View Post
Nearly all immigrant ethnic groups have a few things in common. Take the indians for instance, you got east indians immigrating here, a few years later they got a business going, a house in the burbs, and pretty much guaranteed the kids will be college-bound and onto great careers.

Why is that? Well primarily, it's because they have a strong family structure, which is within a strong community structure. It's simply unacceptable to have a slacker son in the family, let alone a criminal...it a pox on the family within the community. Or a man abandoning his family? An unmarried indian woman raising kids from multiple fathers? Unthinkable...what would the community think? I'm sure all that happens, but it's rare because of the resulting stigma within the community. The entire community is geared toward upward mobility primarily because that brings status within it, while not being upwardly mobile lowers said status. You'll see exactly that in basically every other ethnic group as well.

But take the reverse approach, normalize criminality, normalize single-mother parenting, normalize sitting on the dole...ain't no "jobs" gonna fix jack, sorry. But all that stuff really started AFTER the civil rights movement, btw. You guys ever hear of Thomas Sowell? Brilliant man. He's got some interesting things to say about black america, as a black american.
Great post. Didn't Sowell say something like, "The Black Family survived two hundred years of Slavery and a hundred years of Jim Crow; what it could not survive, was the Welfare State". Smart guy, I remember my Mom saying years ago that making fathers move out of the home in order for the women and children to collect welfare, was the dumbest thing the Gub'mint could do. And with the percentage of children born to unwed mothers up to what, about 75% among blacks, and very high (40%?) among whites, it seems like our culture is at best treading water. I blame the Far Left, not the older, blue-collar Democrats who are probably more aghast at this than I am. They believe the "fix" for the U.S. is Communism, and to be honest, they are winning.
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Old 12-30-2020, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Lake County
76 posts, read 60,028 times
Reputation: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curly Q. Bobalink View Post
Great post. Didn't Sowell say something like, "The Black Family survived two hundred years of Slavery and a hundred years of Jim Crow; what it could not survive, was the Welfare State". Smart guy, I remember my Mom saying years ago that making fathers move out of the home in order for the women and children to collect welfare, was the dumbest thing the Gub'mint could do. And with the percentage of children born to unwed mothers up to what, about 75% among blacks, and very high (40%?) among whites, it seems like our culture is at best treading water. I blame the Far Left, not the older, blue-collar Democrats who are probably more aghast at this than I am. They believe the "fix" for the U.S. is Communism, and to be honest, they are winning.
Hi Curly, yeh Sowell has a lot to say. He points to the 60's civil rights movement as a pivotal time. Per him, up to the 60's, blacks were around 30% of the prison population, since then it's doubled. Up to then, 80% of black households were duel-parent, since then it has slid down to less than half that. Up to that point, black incomes and home ownership were steadily increasing on par with other ethnic groups, since then they've been sluggish. I didn't personally verify any of this, but that's what he says, and I've never heard anybody countering his numbers.

Look if we're talking Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland whatever, black people up in these parts are immigrant stock. They came up here in early 20th cent from the south (may as well have been a different country at that time), not unlike how italians, jews, greeks, poles, etc came from oversees. Being only welcomed into their own ethnic enclaves, this is not unique only to blacks....it's not as though jewish or italian immigrants at that time could just move into a lily white part of Chicago either. So I think it's fair to clump blacks in Chicago (and other midwest cities) together with other immigrant groups of that era.

If you follow Sowell's math, black america was on same course as all those other ethic groups up until the 60's. So why is it that blacks have become the main underclass in any give city, as opposed to it being equally distributed among them and also jews, italians, poles, etc? I suppose that's what needs figuring out, and I don't think mere racism is the answer.
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Old 12-30-2020, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Lake County
76 posts, read 60,028 times
Reputation: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHyping View Post
I would add that in this Nation. We remove and erase a blemish as Bankruptcy after 7-yrs and a new start. For someone who had a criminal record even when young..... it is with them FOR LIFE.

Many Companies have strict hiring practices that having a record will eliminate you from being hired. This for low-skilled warehousing/distribution even. Then while you work a strict speed and performance grading by computer must be kept up. Of course missing days is another reason to fire. Add fear of UNIONS still prevalent for a more hire and fire environment of many companies. A certain turnover rate is kept for that.... that is totally true.

So my point is any digression like a old criminal issue..... is a lifetime blemish that many find much harder to craw out from under especially in low-skilled jobs by larger Corporations. How it differs from Europe? I do not know. Just that here in the US. We can give rehabilitation to a criminal. Still it is with them for life. Small blemishes also WITH THEM FOR LIFE.... just lying and not telling a future employer of it.... if found out is grounds for instant firing.

So that is a factor that aids and can fuel even a underclass we keep growing.... a old drug record even is a criminal record for life.....
I agree with you, NoHyping.
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