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Old 05-13-2021, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Chicago, Little Village
4,545 posts, read 8,042,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Cuccino View Post
NYC's reduction in crime rate had more to do with massive gentrification than any policing. Take any struggling neighborhood, kick out the poor and fill it with upper income professionals and violent crime is guaranteed to drop. Problem is the the crime never really drops it just gets shifted to another area.
But it had something to do with it. How much is subject to debate but there's little doubt it helped. You can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. There really is no single one thing which will solve the issue. There will have to be a multi-faceted approach.
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Old 05-13-2021, 04:26 PM
 
Location: Brackenwood
6,763 posts, read 2,791,953 times
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"Massive gentrification" does not happen without the political will to restore and/or maintain civil order. The most overlooked contribution to the reversal of NYC's fortunes is Giuliani's takedown of the heads of the Five Families, in large part because that made it possible to finally clean up the NYPD.
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Old 05-13-2021, 07:58 PM
 
1,454 posts, read 409,075 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitey View Post
"Massive gentrification" does not happen without the political will to restore and/or maintain civil order. The most overlooked contribution to the reversal of NYC's fortunes is Giuliani's takedown of the heads of the Five Families, in large part because that made it possible to finally clean up the NYPD.
I doubt anyone should think the NYC Police dept was ever completely a most honest police force..... its pensions are through the roof also.

We did get in NYC under Guilinani allowing more dubious police actions that with cell-phones at every scene and police cams.... it could not be duplicated today as some insist. Plenty of dubious Lawyers waiting to lure anyone into a Lawsuit with any city and got phone-cam evidence that could be your god-send out of the hood. So perhaps Guilianni did much better in still a era the police could get away with a lot more then today in a ear of phone-cams and lawsuits though the roof and also gentrification was ongoing that NYC certainly needed that so many saw it as literally a dying city in the 70s early 80s that was not seen as would reverse as it then did.

Still other police departments across the US then also did Guiliani tatics .... just without the same results. How could Baltimore have the same results without much gentrification yet and such a large poverty rate.

https://goodmenproject.com/featured-...-giuliani-wcz/

From the link probably labeled (will probably be labeled liberal we know what)
- Most people don’t remember Giuliani’s campaign for mayor as prosecutor champion and darling of the New York police department who opposed citizen oversight of police brutality complaints.
- Giuliani claimed that random stops, searches, and pursuit of nominal infractions–like ‘turnstyle jumping’—by police would bring down crime rates.
- Crime rates in New York City went down when he was mayor which, he argued, was a result of his new tough policy. And he became an overnight national star in law enforcement circles.
- Most police departments across the U.S. bought into zero tolerance in the late 1990s and early 2000s. They trained new officers in that approach to policing.
- If you want to see Giuliani’s real legacy on full display, simply read the recent Justice department’s report on the Baltimore Police department’s pattern of unconstitutional stops, searches, arrests, and excessive use of force perpetrated against the black community in Baltimore City. It is born of and popularized by the ‘tough-on-crime’ mayor Rudy Giuliani from the mid-90s that shaped the lives of a entire generation of police training and policy across the United States based on ‘zero-tolerance’. Zero tolerance normalized aggressive policing. It also normalized police brutality.
- Crime rates did go down in New York when he was mayor.
- In fact, if the Baltimore report makes anything clear, it is that the zero tolerance policies adopted by most police departments in the late 1990s and early 2000s based on Giuliani’s ‘success’ in New York City have led not to reduced crime rates, but to broad scale patterns of abuse on the part of police against citizens they are sworn to protect.


NYC had begun to fall before Giuliani took office, and studies across a number of cities provide little evidence that his major initiatives like “broken windows” policing and “stop and frisk” have any significant effect on crime rates -- which is borne out be the fact that crime in NYC kept falling after those policies were eliminated.

Guiliani became mayor of NYC in 1994 - 2001 and 9/11.
Violent Crimes, New York CityYear Year-to-Year % Change
1991 -3.28
1992 -7.21
1993 -4.66
1994 -11.9
1995 -17.2
1996 -14.2
1997 -6.71
1998 -8.30
1999 -8.88
2000 -4.94
2001 -1.87


https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._New_York_City

From this link.

Overall, the results presented in this study indicate that gentrification in New York City was associated with declines in violent crime rates. This sup-ports the logic of recent initiatives by city governments to promote revitaliza-tion strategies such as gentrification to reduce the prevalence of social problems such as poverty and crime.
- It is important to recognize that gentri-fication may not be the savior of cities, however, as there was widespread concern that gentrification disproportionately affected the poor and racial minorities by shifting them from disadvantaged areas with high potential for profit to disadvantaged areas with limited resources
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Old Yesterday, 04:17 AM
 
Location: Chicago, Little Village
4,545 posts, read 8,042,676 times
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Today's progressives are not liberal, lol. Anyway, I don't know what the political bias of Good Men Project is but blaming Rudy Giuliani for Baltimore's woes is pretty good. Why not right? But again, to shift back out of politics, i agree we could debate to what extent community policing works, but it does work, particularly when combined with other things like gentrification.

But I can tell you for sure what doesn't work - modern progressive policies. Baltimore's homicide rate skyrocketed after their mayor's "give them room to destroy" comment. It went from 33.8 to a whopping 55.4 from 2014 to 2015 - nearly double what it was during the early '80s - and has remained in the fifties ever since.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Baltimore

We ourselves saw a similar rise in homicide after the 2016 consent decree.

Last edited by BRU67; Yesterday at 04:27 AM..
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Old Yesterday, 04:42 AM
 
Location: Chicago, Little Village
4,545 posts, read 8,042,676 times
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Also, by aggressive policing, I do not mean beating and shooting people and violating their civil rights. I'm talking about arresting people for crimes they commit, and then prosecuting those crimes, unlike our current State's Attorney.

The presence of cell phones should thus be irrelevant to the discussion, or a net good as it'll help get bad cops off the street and help improve practices.
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Old Yesterday, 05:34 AM
 
Location: Wheaton, MD
29 posts, read 4,019 times
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Crime in NY actually started dropping while Dinkins was still in there. Guy always gets a bad rap.

But Bitey is right...gentrification wasn't going to happen until white kids from the midwest felt safe moving to places like the LES.
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Old Yesterday, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Brackenwood
6,763 posts, read 2,791,953 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ycomoque View Post
Crime in NY actually started dropping while Dinkins was still in there. Guy always gets a bad rap.
Right, and you can largely thank Giuliani's takedown of the Five Families heads for that, and the dismantling of the mafia patronage network that cleared the way for Dinkins to become mayor in the first place.
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Old Yesterday, 03:25 PM
 
1,454 posts, read 409,075 times
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NYC And Chicago never were the same.... still some saw Guiliani as deserving all the credit and the fact some things worked.. ..had to do with how loyal ones gang or power over the head of the Police are. Cause the same tactics did not work in other cities. Perhaps the patronage of POWER of a MAYOR and POLICE HEADS And a ABILITY to get though and claims of OVERSTEPPING did force more thugs to get caught and supposedly claimed Mafia heads

Still again, these cities differ in many things and it was realized the issues of the Guiliani administration were also with their own set of issues and his own ..... not totally moral ways perhaps..... like a lot can be said for the first Daley.... some still loved him and praised him for his tactics again.... how much were so morally correct looking back have shown us they were not all that and some.

I merely address that Chicago should have done fully what Guiliani did and basically much of that was already done under Daley Sr. After that to say all hell broke loose well again... these cities are not the same nor histories even with links. Just praising. Gentrification was still listed as such a PUSH though NYC that it Mattered also a lot.

I always felt some city leaders had deals with the Gangs to keep it in the hood and turn a head perhaps......
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Old Yesterday, 11:44 PM
 
22 posts, read 2,291 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRU67 View Post
But it had something to do with it. How much is subject to debate but there's little doubt it helped. You can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. There really is no single one thing which will solve the issue. There will have to be a multi-faceted approach.
The ghettos in America are much worse than any ghetto in any other developed country that I've seen. The poorest and worst neighborhoods in Toronto, Montreal, Amsterdam, Sydney, are nothing compared to our ghettos. Do you think their policing is much more aggressive than ours? We incarcerate at a much higher rate.
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Old Today, 09:10 AM
 
1,454 posts, read 409,075 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Cuccino View Post
The ghettos in America are much worse than any ghetto in any other developed country that I've seen. The poorest and worst neighborhoods in Toronto, Montreal, Amsterdam, Sydney, are nothing compared to our ghettos. Do you think their policing is much more aggressive than ours? We incarcerate at a much higher rate.
The hyping of the US with the worst Ghettos in the Western World whether so and true for size and scope.... also has many factors these other Nations DID NOT ENDURE. Illegal immigration to severe segregation and business/real estate practices that with White-Flight lead to these so called Ghettos that ONCE THE US HAD AS WHITE..... IRISH, ITALIAN and JEWISH GHETTOS to name some.

Ghettos and Slums are different. Many cities of the world get the term SLUMS. Why..... slums were built to be such by the poorest of the city even built by them.

It would be like if homeless rather then tents.... built shacks of whatever could be found that become a permanent location to live and actually a neighborhood onto itself.

8 of the World's largest slums.
https://www.usnews.com/news/cities/a...-largest-slums

A UN definition of a Slum as the term Ghetto is not a synonym.

- a. Slums – An expert group meeting was convened in 2002 by UN-Habitat, the United Nations Statistics
Division and the Cities Alliance to agree on an operational definition for slums to be used for measuring the
indicator of MDG 7 Target 7.D. The agreed definition classified a ‘slum household’ as one in which the
inhabitants suffer one or more of the following ‘household deprivations’:
1. Lack of access to improved water source,
2. Lack of access to improved sanitation facilities,
3. Lack of sufficient living area,
4. Lack of housing durability and,
5. Lack of security of tenure

To claim a Ghetto in a US city where housing was not built inadequately and not built to be a home for the poorest, still has running water and sewers, not even like the old tenements of old of NYC, housing is durable till neglect and the elements are allowed to deteriorate it.... etc. These ghettos are FAR From the worst of living conditions of the worlds slums totally built to be such.

So despite being high gangland crime etc. These ghettos are not nearly as deprived as true slums to say they are the WORST IN THE WORLD...... Even the notorious failed Housing Projects were decent housing by far vs a slum. Just crime, hood rats, druggies, thugs etc. caused a environment not intended for poorer citizens to have adequate housing that for the most part by far .... they did.


The OUT is always... oh compared to other WESTERN Nations.... THE BAD US is WORST. Well we did grow this under-class by lose of low-skilled jobs that once paid decent like in manufacturing from areas of where these ghettos were to develop and WERE NOT SUCH ORIGINALLY. Retail exited. Redlining by real estate and Block-Busting illegal scare tactics FUELED THE DECLINES by White-Flight also intense.

So these are things a CANADA in Racial strife etc.... did not have as the US and on two-fronts, its African-American population and Hispanic. Hispanic with a HIGH number as ILLEGALS and that ILLEGAL TOTAL is MORE then ALL Canada's Population. A Australia did not have anything near it also. A Europe far less in the past but has experienced more since migrations from some Nations of poor created more a sense of their own high-crime Ghettos also.

If the BOAST is US WORST... so be it. This thread is ON ONE NEIGHBORHOOD IN CHICAGO THAT ONE DAY WILL NOT BE A GHETTO PROBABLY. Slums generally have low hope unless totally replaced.

Cities of housing a HUGE PREMIUM will have less chance a Ghetto develop or remain. Those booming with new residents will have a greater chance a ghetto area will shrink. NYC and say a Boston has seen this how Gentrification in a larger and larger % of a city decreases ghettos of old and effects crime %'s then.

It is fine for some to see maybe East Garfield getting gentrified with West Garfield much longer to a less prospect? Still lot of Chicago gentrification follows Hispanic first areas. That is one thing that sets Chicago aside from many. Seemed it was much easier and faster for a Hispanic changed ethnicity neighborhood to see gentrification then a predominately African-American one seen with more hood-crime.

Last edited by NoHyping; Today at 09:20 AM..
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