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I think Chicago does have a good marketing tool as it relates to affordability. But I think people underestimate just how bad Chicago's crime reputation is nationally. In the City vs. City forum, a poster was asking about an affordable big city that described Chicago perfectly. When posters mentioned Chicago, the OP said that he had ruled it out because of safety concerns. When I go back to the east coast to visit family and mention that I'm from Chicago, 9 out of 10 people will say "is it really that bad out there?"
People don't realized how bad Chicago's reputation is nationally for violent crime. I have mentioned for years that Chicago will need to reverse that before it can capitalize and draw the city dwellers from coastal cities (or anywhere else for that matter).
Chicago has a real uphill battle when changing its image related to crime. I have family/friends in Kansas City and Indianapolis who are both concerned for my safety. I have to explain to them that Chicago is NOT in fact the most dangerous city (is it even in the top 20 nationally??), and that per capita where they live is far worse. Chicago gets a bad rap for its legacy of criminal history combined with a strong national narrative (particular amongst fringe media) as a crime ridden city. I'm always blown away how much Chicago crime/corruption is the topic of discussion on by pundit talk shows and media when I'm home with my family and they are listening to it in the background.
That said, Chicago should be working to improve its crime as these shootings are never acceptable, but Chicago reputation for crime I feel is here to stay for awhile. I hope it can one day change.
I don't know that Houston will be habitable in 2050.
If it is, and it continues to grow, great. Go for #1.
Maybe we can work on our infrastructure by repairing what is needed and investing further.
The idea of living through another explosive growth in real estate is unbearable. Keep that crap in Texas, their politicians don't seem to mind what happens to their citizens.
Houston will be as habitable as Chicago. Land is not an issue. Its not a city sitting on porous soil like much of Florida or Louisiana. The question is what will be the condition of the economy in 25 years? Its three-legged economy there - Energy, Trade (big seaport/Mexico) and Medical. The economy is more balanced there than it was 40 years ago with Energy less of a contributor. With the push toward Electric Vehicles, how much might that slow demand for oil and gas? And if it does, can Houston pivot to other industries to offset revenues lost in the energy sector? There's some tech base there (Hewlett and BMC software) but not much else. Tourism, Real Estate development and Finance contribute but Dallas/Fort Worth is the big financial center of the sunbelt. Austin is the big tech center of the Sunbelt.
I don't know either in 30 years Houston catches Chicago for population but the metro area is still 2.5 million smaller than Chicagoland. Chicago has no real peer cities in the midwest or smaller cities that many think are more attractive; maybe Minneapolis is the only real competitor. But for Houston, it has one even in its home state (Dallas area) not to mention Atlanta, Miami and some other fast growing southern cities.
Chicago has a real uphill battle when changing its image related to crime. I have family/friends in Kansas City and Indianapolis who are both concerned for my safety. I have to explain to them that Chicago is NOT in fact the most dangerous city (is it even in the top 20 nationally??), and that per capita where they live is far worse. Chicago gets a bad rap for its legacy of criminal history combined with a strong national narrative (particular amongst fringe media) as a crime ridden city. I'm always blown away how much Chicago crime/corruption is the topic of discussion on by pundit talk shows and media when I'm home with my family and they are listening to it in the background.
That said, Chicago should be working to improve its crime as these shootings are never acceptable, but Chicago reputation for crime I feel is here to stay for awhile. I hope it can one day change.
Agree. In people's heart of hearts, I think they know that Chicago isn't that bad (it's the 3rd largest city in the US!), but it has become the en-vogue thing to equate with Chicago. LA is acting, NY is wall street, Chicago is crime.
No matter how many cities have worse crime "rates," until Chicago can consistently (over a stretch of 5-7 years) get rid of weekly summer weekend headlines of 50 shot, 10 dead; and until another city can take over in terms of "total" violent crimes numbers, it will not lose its reputation. The only city that is in striking distance is Philly, but it's total numbers are still pretty far below Chicago's. And for the reputation to be forgotten by the general public, it will take at least 5 years of Chicago avoiding the lofty weekend numbers and another city (i.e. Philly) taking its place for people to forget.
New York and LA are both much larger than Chicago, and have been able to avoid the kinds of numbers Chicago has, so it is possible. But something (from a strategy perspective) is amiss as Chicago, year after year, has these kinds of numbers.
Until Chicago rids itself of this, it will not reach its full potential. People will not be moving here in droves with the crime reputation.
Chicago used to be known for skyscrapers, sports, and food. Now the first thing people think of, nationally and internationally, is violent crime. Having a movie, "Chiraq," named after your city doesn't help. The city doesn't realize that this is the biggest impediment to it becoming a globally great city.
Lol. Potential declines in the Houston area may be very well due to FLOODS . Unpredictable weather patterns, the notorious significant Houston area floods, poor infrastructure, lack of zoning, etc. may foreshadow an overall relo decrease. No state taxes are nice but...
We can talk all day about what you specifically wouldnt want out of a place to live. But the numbers speak for themselves. Houston gained more new total residents than all other metro areas minus DFW and NYC. Per capita were number 5.
The overwhelming majority of Houston doesnt flood but there are a few areas that flood spectacularly when it does and they make for good front page shots. Houston is working hard on flood mitigation and weve already seen results. The bayous are being widened and there are more retaining pools being built. The state and our previous county judge tried to be cheap about it but now we have good county leadership that pushes forward with it.
As far as infrastructure, we arent going to win any awards but neither is Illinois so thats not a stone you can throw at us.
The only criticism you presented that actually affects peoples lives here on a daily basis and which wont change is the lack of zoning. Some people hate it. Thats totally fine. Its preference. I spent two years in Chicago. I loved my time there. I couldnt handle the cold weather so I left. Thats doesnt make people wrong for preferring that climate. Houston is hot and humid most of the year. Id rather deal with that.
As I mentioned Im a liberal guy and I dont like the state government in Texas. But I do love Texas itself. Its been a great home and Houston is a great city. I love Chicago too and is my favorite city to visit in the US. Chicago and Houston both have issues facing us, they are just different.
-Houston is hot and humid much of the year, Chicago is an ice box much of the year
-Chicago has a massive gang problem, Houston has a massive human trafficking problem
-Illinois has obscenely high taxes, Texas wont raise them when we need to
-Chicago is ultra segregated, Houston has no zoning
But...
-Both cities are international and super diverse
-Both cities have amazing culinary and cultural scenes
-Both cities offer a lot for the cost it takes to live there
-People in both cities are friendly (though Houston is more laid back)
Take the good with the bad.
Last edited by As Above So Below...; 08-17-2021 at 08:39 AM..
Yes, amen! I've also been saying this for years. Houston continues to annex land/suburbs; they even maintain a website dedicated to annex requests.
If Barry Bonds has an asterisk next to his name in the Hall of Fame, Houston should have an asterisk next to its name in these ranking tables.
I lived in Houston for 2 years. You couldn't pay me to move back. Most of my friends were fellow transplants from NY, Chicago, Boston etc. Out of my transplant community of 15 or so, only 1 guy is still there. It doesn't feel like a place to put down roots. Early-to-mid career oil & gas professionals go there to make some bucks, but when the pay isn't good or the bonuses don't come (or worse: layoffs), there's not a lot else to keep one sticking around.
It is a HIGHLY transient city. Most of the expats that come through on short-ish rotations and don't stick around long. Other northern transplants come their seeking greener pastures, but then realize that poor construction quality, lack of public transportation, mostly chain-based dining, excessive summer rains and oppressive humidity, really don't offer a high quality of life.
Here's another caveat: Texas is actually raising property taxes! State level is 1.69% and Harris county is running at 2.09% Shoddier housing (Building codes/zoning are joke in TX) with rising taxes doesn't seem like a winning trade to me.
As someone from Texas and who has traveled nationally and internationally, Houston's quality of life is good. its the most diverse MSA in America. Its crime rate is better than Chicago's. It's neighborhoods are nowhere near as segregated as Chicago's (my aunt was a southsider for 50 years; my cousin was a westsider for most of his life until he got tired of the crime.) It far less corrupt than Chicago politics. Its schools are better. Construction quality comments are without merit because Houston doesn't have buildings crumbling or swept away by hurricanes in general. (One of the biggest developers in the world, Gerald Hines is based in Houston.)
People in the Energy sector in Houston aren't going to leave that quickly as for one, its the energy capital of the world. Second, the pay for engineers beats higher priced markets like Boston, or Chicago. Yea property taxes in Texas are high. But there's no state income tax. gas prices are much cheaper than in Chicago and sales tax is 8.25% vs. what 11% in Chicago, highest in the nation? How much is public transit costing up there compared to Houston? I'll tell you, Chicago ranks FIFTH highest for public transit in America - https://www.valuepenguin.com/most-an...ties-commuting (Chicago does have Houston beat for cheaper car insurance where the latter ranks 24th highest in the U.S.)
Rainfall in Chicago is about the same in Dallas, 36 inches. Houston is 49 inches but of course, Houston doesn't get snowed in either. And I've seen plenty of heatwaves in Chicago with folks dying because they don't have A/C. The worse part of Houston is not rain, its humidity which all gulf coast areas suffer from.
A city that was 1.5MM in 1980 and now 2.3 million can't be all that transient.
We can talk all day about what you specifically wouldnt want out of a place to live. But the numbers speak for themselves. Houston gained more new total residents than all other metro areas minus DFW and NYC. Per capita were number 5.
The overwhelming majority of Houston doesnt flood but there are a few areas that flood spectacularly when it does and they make for good front page shots. Houston is working hard on flood mitigation and weve already seen results. The bayous are being widened and there are more retaining pools being built. The state and our previous county judge tried to be cheap about it but now we have good county leadership that pushes forward with it.
As far as infrastructure, we arent going to win any awards but neither is Illinois so thats not a stone you can throw at us.
The only criticism you presented that actually affects peoples lives here on a daily basis and which wont change is the lack of zoning. Some people hate it. Thats totally fine. Its preference. I spent two years in Chicago. I loved my time there. I couldnt handle the cold weather so I left. Thats doesnt make people wrong for preferring that climate. Houston is hot and humid most of the year. Id rather deal with that.
As I mentioned Im a liberal guy and I dont like the state government in Texas. But I do love Texas itself. Its been a great home and Houston is a great city. I love Chicago too and is my favorite city to visit in the US. Chicago and Houston both have issues facing us, they are just different.
-Houston is hot and humid much of the year, Chicago is an ice box much of the year
-Chicago has a massive gang problem, Houston has a massive human trafficking problem
-Illinois has obscenely high taxes, Texas wont raise them when we need to
-Chicago is ultra segregated, Houston has no zoning
But...
-Both cities are international and super diverse
-Both cities have amazing culinary and cultural scenes
-Both cities offer a lot for the cost it takes to live there
-People in both cities are friendly (though Houston is more laid back)
Take the good with the bad.
Agree with this post. Houston is a nice city, and it's surprising how people are downplaying it here (although this is C-D and every city tries to one-up the other ).
It is a more modern city and has had much stronger growth than Chicago over the years.
I think the weather/hurricane worries are legitimate though, and I really like the 4 season weather in Chicago (the winters are easy to get used to IMO). I think Chicago is more of my style of a city, but can easily see how people would chose Houston. It's mostly personal preference.
As far as housing, I also really love more modern homes, and the housing stock in Chicago is much older, vs the newer housing stock in Houston.
LA and Phoenix are both smaller than Houston. Houston had massive annexation as recent as the 90s. Point isnt whether Chicago can or will annex, point is that incorporating new land will undoubtedly increase population in almost any city. If San Francisco were to Annex just one suburb, Oakland, it's population would increase by 50%. If Dallas were to annex just Ft Worth it would have almost the same population as Houston.
Weather forecast for Houston for the next 10 days is low to mid 90s every day and very humid. That sounds like a nightmare.
Actually, massive annexation is misleading. They annexed Kingwood, a master-planned community back then of about 40,000. Houston at the time was still over 1.8 million residents. Since 1980, Houston has annexed Clear Lake (NASA Space Center) and Kingwood. Clear Lake was no bigger than Kingwood. Houston 's population has been growing regardless of annexation. You post as if Chicago has never had annexed any land. For Chicago, the period of extensive annexations extended from 1851 to 1920. The largest annexation occurred in 1889, when four of five incorporated townships surrounding Chicago (as well as a part of the fifth) were annexed to the city. Most annexations to Chicago during these years came because Chicago offered superior services, from better water connections in the nineteenth century to better high schools in the early twentieth. Later, prior incorporations and suburban resistance to the power and urban complexity of Chicago halted the process.
Summer in the 90s? That's basically all of the southern U.S. How about 20 degrees and subzero winters in Chicago? I don't see people jumping for joy over that. As a recall a senior citizen from Indianapolis once said when friends were surprised she moved to Texas, "you don't have shovel heat".
You want to know what's massive, how about London, UK. Same square miles as Houston but twice the population.
I think the weather/hurricane worries are legitimate though, and I really like the 4 season weather in Chicago (the winters are easy to get used to IMO). I think Chicago is more of my style of a city, but can easily see how people would chose Houston. It's mostly personal preference.
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Hurricanes are a legitimate concern. I took more issue with the idea that flooding is something we deal with constantly and that were doing nothing to try and mitigate the problem.
I get that climate change isnt doing either of our cities any favors, but we are doing things that are making flooding less of an issue in the day to day.
Ill also say that the whole "which city has more people" competition is stupid. Its not like if Houston all of the sudden would be a completely different city if it passed Chicago in population count. Metro populations or urban area is what really matters.
People don't realized how bad Chicago's reputation is nationally for violent crime. I have mentioned for years that Chicago will need to reverse that before it can capitalize and draw the city dwellers from coastal cities (or anywhere else for that matter).
It's a reputation well deserved and I'm sick of it Two POS ambushed a 70 year old woman and shot her to death and for what?
Edit: Sorry for the rant
Last edited by chicagogeorge; 08-17-2021 at 10:55 AM..
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. Unpredictable weather patterns, the notorious significant Houston area floods, poor infrastructure, lack of zoning, etc. may foreshadow an overall relo decrease. No state taxes are nice but...
Shoddier housing (Building codes/zoning are joke in TX) with rising taxes doesn't seem like a winning trade to me.
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