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Then I'm guessing you've never tried to raise a family in Chicago while trying to get them a quality education on a middle-class income.
No. Why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover
Austin's form is more similar to Oak Park's than the neighborhoods that have gentrified, but without the benefits of Oak Park's schools.
Well, yes and no.
Oak Park's downtown does resemble business districts in areas that have gentrified. Indeed, I would say it can hang with most strips in walkable, gentrified areas of Chicago (alright, except for bars/clubs ). It has a great diversity of businesses, plenty towards the top end, and great transit access too. Madison St. and south Oak Park Ave. aren't too far behind, and the Arts District is nice. They influence the areas nearby, collectively central Oak Park, roughly from around the Green Line south to around the Blue Line. This central Oak Park area has lots of rentals and is as pedestrian- and transit-oriented as most Chicago neighborhoods outside of the inner city. In summary, central Oak Park resembles in many ways neighborhoods that have gentrified, in infrastructure, housing stock and business mix, and by the way, social class, age and income too.
The problem comparing OP and Austin is parts of OP don't look anything like other parts of OP. Down on western Lake St., you can live in a 15 story apartment tower in the middle of a pedestrian district as nice as almost anything in the city. On the north end of town, with the wide lots and no rapid transit anywhere nearby, those blocks don't look very different from those in Naperville. Most of the town is spit-shined and spotless, but there are short stretches of Harlem or Roosevelt that look kind of urban and run-down. South Austin is not so varied.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover
The parts of Chicago that have gentrified despite the schools are those that have high density rental stock and similarly dense business districts, particularly along those well-served by public transportation. Those neighborhoods are more adaptable to the lifestyle sought by young, often single professional upstarts. But when those singles become couples with children, the vast majority of them eventually beat a path out to the suburbs, such as Oak Park.
Anyway, my point is Oak Park is not completely filled with families. The north and south ends definitely are. But you think those mid-rise condo towers lining Lake St. are full of soccer moms and school-age children? No. The north and south ends are mostly SFHs and families, but the middle part has lots of rentals (not only along western Lake St.) and some families, but plenty of non-families. So, you're right on this above. But west-central and east-central Oak Park has a healthy serving of...well, young, often single (mostly childless) professional upstarts. And they are there because it has all the things you list: lots of rental housing, dense business district(s) and good public transportation.
I think others have established that west S Austin has solid housing stock comparable to all but the very top end of Oak Park (although not so many rentals at present). The public transportation access is clearly similar (better, really). Of those you listed, what is lacking is the great business districts. But if you look at a satellite photo of the region, you can see the areas were laid out the same. The Chicago Ave. and Madison St. and Lake St./South Blvd. business districts are continuous across Austin Blvd. You can see that maybe 40 years ago these Austin and Oak Park strips were probably comparable. Just for whatever reason, since then the Oak Park side built up and the Austin side got beat down. But the zoning and layout and infrastructure and even some of the commercial building stock is all there to provide for dense, walkable business districts in Austin. It seems that only the demand was lacking.
Then all you need is spark. Which may or may not ever come.
I didn't know Proviso East was that bad DAMN!!!! and to think some people send their kids to Proviso East so they can avoid the CPS.
Also Marshall, Manley, and Orr aren't located in Austin. Orr is the only HS out of the 3 that could service the area being that it's on the southern edge of Humboldt Park
According to Wikipedia, those schools do serve Austin, at least now:
Austin Community Academy High School closed after Spring 2007. New smaller schools will replace Austin Community Academy High School. One of the small schools, Austin Polytechnical Academy, opened in September 2007.
Other portions of the community area are zoned to Manley H.S., Marshall H.S., and Orr Campus.
According to Wikipedia, those schools do serve Austin, at least now:
Austin Community Academy High School closed after Spring 2007. New smaller schools will replace Austin Community Academy High School. One of the small schools, Austin Polytechnical Academy, opened in September 2007.
Other portions of the community area are zoned to Manley H.S., Marshall H.S., and Orr Campus.
So maybe with the closing of ACA they redistributed Austin kids to Manley, Marshall and Orr? Or maybe Wiki is wrong? Wouldn't be the first time.
This could be right, I know a lot of students in north Austin who attend Foreman and Prosser. Marshall and Manley just seemed too far, but now that you explained it- it's a possibility
Oak Park's downtown does resemble business districts in areas that have gentrified. Indeed, I would say it can hang with most strips in walkable, gentrified areas of Chicago (alright, except for bars/clubs ). It has a great diversity of businesses, plenty towards the top end, and great transit access too. Madison St. and south Oak Park Ave. aren't too far behind, and the Arts District is nice. They influence the areas nearby, collectively central Oak Park, roughly from around the Green Line south to around the Blue Line. This central Oak Park area has lots of rentals and is as pedestrian- and transit-oriented as most Chicago neighborhoods outside of the inner city. In summary, central Oak Park resembles in many ways neighborhoods that have gentrified, in infrastructure, housing stock and business mix, and by the way, social class, age and income too.
The problem comparing OP and Austin is parts of OP don't look anything like other parts of OP. Down on western Lake St., you can live in a 15 story apartment tower in the middle of a pedestrian district as nice as almost anything in the city. On the north end of town, with the wide lots and no rapid transit anywhere nearby, those blocks don't look very different from those in Naperville. Most of the town is spit-shined and spotless, but there are short stretches of Harlem or Roosevelt that look kind of urban and run-down. South Austin is not so varied.
Anyway, my point is Oak Park is not completely filled with families. The north and south ends definitely are. But you think those mid-rise condo towers lining Lake St. are full of soccer moms and school-age children? No. The north and south ends are mostly SFHs and families, but the middle part has lots of rentals (not only along western Lake St.) and some families, but plenty of non-families. So, you're right on this above. But west-central and east-central Oak Park has a healthy serving of...well, young, often single (mostly childless) professional upstarts. And they are there because it has all the things you list: lots of rental housing, dense business district(s) and good public transportation.
I think others have established that west S Austin has solid housing stock comparable to all but the very top end of Oak Park (although not so many rentals at present). The public transportation access is clearly similar (better, really). Of those you listed, what is lacking is the great business districts. But if you look at a satellite photo of the region, you can see the areas were laid out the same. The Chicago Ave. and Madison St. and Lake St./South Blvd. business districts are continuous across Austin Blvd. You can see that maybe 40 years ago these Austin and Oak Park strips were probably comparable. Just for whatever reason, since then the Oak Park side built up and the Austin side got beat down. But the zoning and layout and infrastructure and even some of the commercial building stock is all there to provide for dense, walkable business districts in Austin. It seems that only the demand was lacking.
Then all you need is spark. Which may or may not ever come.
It's possible that Austin will gentrify. Drover's right in that this process tends to happen much easier in areas with large rental concentrations around business districts. But you're right in that Oak Park is not completely filled with families. About 45% of its housing units are rentals. That number is about 60% in Austin. That's lower than your Lakeviews, Lincoln Parks and Logan Squares of the world (which tend to be in the 70s), but still substantial enough to potentially start something in a community along the L and next to a well regarded neighborhood (Oak Park). You also have pioneers other than young singles, such as gays and artist couples, who will buy and rehab pretty houses in questionable areas.
However, I think a big push back against that kind of gentrification in Austin will be crime and safety. Those folks may not care about schools but they do care about that. And on that note, they can also go to Cicero right next door and get a beautiful bungalow with stained glass windows, textured brick and all those hip little things for about the price of a handful of dirt and not have to worry about getting shot, raped, or mugged. Well, not nearly as worried as you would be in Austin anyway.
And Hispanic business development there means there are more options in terms of restaurants and grocery stores. There may not be coffee shops with frothy milk but there is usually fresh meat and produce within reasonable distance. You can't say that about much of Austin, which is pretty much a wasteland economically. I mean, there's nothing there man, except fast food joints and liquor stores.
I'd actually love to see Austin turn the corner myself but I think it's going to a tough road. If there's a massive back-to-the-city movement, such as may happen if gas prices go up to $4-5/gallon, you may very well see it (and don't rule that out over the next decade). Otherwise, it's probably going to be awhile.
It's possible that Austin will gentrify. Drover's right in that this process tends to happen much easier in areas with large rental concentrations around business districts. But you're right in that Oak Park is not completely filled with families. About 45% of its housing units are rentals. That number is about 60% in Austin. That's lower than your Lakeviews, Lincoln Parks and Logan Squares of the world (which tend to be in the 70s), but still substantial enough to potentially start something in a community along the L and next to a well regarded neighborhood (Oak Park). You also have pioneers other than young singles, such as gays and artist couples, who will buy and rehab pretty houses in questionable areas.
However, I think a big push back against that kind of gentrification in Austin will be crime and safety. Those folks may not care about schools but they do care about that. And on that note, they can also go to Cicero right next door and get a beautiful bungalow with stained glass windows, textured brick and all those hip little things for about the price of a handful of dirt and not have to worry about getting shot, raped, or mugged. Well, not nearly as worried as you would be in Austin anyway.
And Hispanic business development there means there are more options in terms of restaurants and grocery stores. There may not be coffee shops with frothy milk but there is usually fresh meat and produce within reasonable distance. You can't say that about much of Austin, which is pretty much a wasteland economically. I mean, there's nothing there man, except fast food joints and liquor stores.
I'd actually love to see Austin turn the corner myself but I think it's going to a tough road. If there's a massive back-to-the-city movement, such as may happen if gas prices go up to $4-5/gallon, you may very well see it (and don't rule that out over the next decade). Otherwise, it's probably going to be awhile.
You raise very good points, however the gentrification patterns in Chicago neighborhoods has been outwards from the city core. Pilsen and Little Village will gentrify long before Cicero does, and Cicero will resemble those areas before it gentrifies. Same goes for Berwyn, it will resemble Cicero before it gentrifies. If Austin follows the same pattern as dozens of other Chicago neighborhoods, it will resemble West Garfield Park before it resembles Oak Park.
You raise very good points, however the gentrification patterns in Chicago neighborhoods has been outwards from the city core. Pilsen and Little Village will gentrify long before Cicero does, and Cicero will resemble those areas before it gentrifies. Same goes for Berwyn, it will resemble Cicero before it gentrifies. If Austin follows the same pattern as dozens of other Chicago neighborhoods, it will resemble West Garfield Park before it resembles Oak Park.
If it's a completely linear pattern, that could be the case, though that also implies that Riverside and Brookfield will then resemble Cicero, and so on, until the Latinos now in Little Village push west to an unknown point. Linear movement has generally been true with regard to Hispanic communities so far (largely because of massive Mexican immigration starting in the late 1970s), but I think human behavior, and future Latin-American immigration patterns, are too unpredictable to say that will necessarily continue.
Pilsen is already gentrifying. Little Village? Maybe next, maybe not. You could be right. The point is those communities gentrify because they're generally safer and more livable than Austin is today. I'd also argue that much of Austin already does resemble West Garfield Park in terms of demographics and livability. No gentrification going on there that I'm aware of.
On the west side the boundaries of gentrifications are Austin Blvd on the west and somewhere around Western on the east side. If I were an urban pioneer, I'd be betting more of the eastern boundary shifting faster than the Austin Blvd boundary.
Regarding development in east Oak Park (east of Ridgeland), there is/was a fair bit of movement to redevelop eastern North, Lake, and Chicago Ave, but I'd imagine those plans are dead/on hold given the current economic climate.
I'd also argue that much of Austin already does resemble West Garfield Park in terms of demographics and livability. No gentrification going on there that I'm aware of.
There is (or was) a hint of gentrification in Austin and Garfield Park, with some new construction/gut rehabbing. There was an article somewhere this past month or so about urban pioneers in Garfield Park. One new resident moved into a condo building that had a rooftop dog park because it wasn't safe enough to walk the dog around the neighborhood. I know someone who recently bought in GP, so I'll be curious to see how her experience turns out. Austin has also had some new construction housing built around the Austin Ave el stop. Some of it has remained unsold and is now rental.
There is (or was) a hint of gentrification in Austin and Garfield Park, with some new construction/gut rehabbing. There was an article somewhere this past month or so about urban pioneers in Garfield Park. One new resident moved into a condo building that had a rooftop dog park because it wasn't safe enough to walk the dog around the neighborhood. I know someone who recently bought in GP, so I'll be curious to see how her experience turns out. Austin has also had some new construction housing built around the Austin Ave el stop. Some of it has remained unsold and is now rental.
I remember the article, it was about East Garfield Park and not West Garfield Park. The building, a warehouse converted to lofts, is located at 2600 West, Austin is 6000 West. 34 blocks is quite a distance.
Good points. I'd also predict, as you hint at, that gentrification will follow along the commuter train lines too, which gives Austin, South Lawndale (Little Village), East/West Garfield Park, etc. fighting chances. The safety issues in some of these areas, and even the schools, is nothing that couldn't be overcome with a large migration of the middle and upper middle classes.
But again, how fast it happens, and when it starts up again, is the big question. Right now, nothing is going on due to the economic climate. A massive "macro" change such as very high fuel prices could really accelerate it, as could changing tastes in housing size and walkability discussed in the "Next Slum" thread.
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). It has a great diversity of businesses, plenty towards the top end, and great transit access too. Madison St. and south Oak Park Ave. aren't too far behind, and the Arts District is nice. They influence the areas nearby, collectively central Oak Park, roughly from around the Green Line south to around the Blue Line. This central Oak Park area has lots of rentals and is as pedestrian- and transit-oriented as most Chicago neighborhoods outside of the inner city. In summary, central Oak Park resembles in many ways neighborhoods that have gentrified, in infrastructure, housing stock and business mix, and by the way, social class, age and income too.
