Anyone going to the Chicago Tea Party? (Clinton, Bush: to buy, wages)

[UnderTheLiveOaks]

Originally Posted by Avengerfire

Today was a decent success.

A bunch of people that frequent these forums are eating crow right now.

What. The jolly little cruise by the Young Republicans, who threw empty crates (marked "tea" for those who can't handle even the slightest HINT of subtlety) into the lake and then immediately pulled em back out? I hope you're, instead, referring to the little party at Federal Plaza, because I couldn't stop laughing about the little boat ride.

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by CarolinaBredChicagoan

...because I couldn't stop laughing about the little boat ride.

I laughed maniacally like the godless evil Democrat I am. Muah hah hah haaaaaahhhh!! Silly Republicans who think they're relevant!

[Tom Jefferson]

surely you jest. It IS a rep/dem thing: democrats ALWAYS raise taxes,you knew it before the election and therefore have nothing to complain about. Eight years of Bush and NO TAX INCREASES. Bama shot down the permanent tax cuts and no one said a word. between nato and the administration, you won't recognize this once great nation by this time next year............way to go...(read up on fascism)

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by Tom Jefferson

surely you jest. It IS a rep/dem thing: democrats ALWAYS raise taxes,you knew it before the election and therefore have nothing to complain about. Eight years of Bush and NO TAX INCREASES. Bama shot down the permanent tax cuts and no one said a word. between nato and the administration, you won't recognize this once great nation by this time next year............way to go...(read up on fascism)

1. You sounds like a nut.

2. Eight years of Clinton, and a tax cut for most of the country? I thought dems ALWAYS raise taxes? Were you born after 2000?

3. I have to laugh when the "American Taliban" religious conservatives say anything about fascism. How can they do this with a straight face?

[UnderTheLiveOaks]

Originally Posted by Tom Jefferson

surely you jest. It IS a rep/dem thing: democrats ALWAYS raise taxes,you knew it before the election and therefore have nothing to complain about. Eight years of Bush and NO TAX INCREASES. Bama shot down the permanent tax cuts and no one said a word. between nato and the administration, you won't recognize this once great nation by this time next year............way to go...(read up on fascism)

Jesus, buddy. If some of you blithering dittoheads didn't stumble upon the word "fascism" on some talk show, you'd be effectively mute.

And I'd love for you, sir, to read up on fascism. Or just read. Anything, really. A book. A magazine. The label to a ketchup bottle.

Then explain to me a few things:
1) How you could look at the state of the economy and say ANYTHING positive about 8 years of Bush and no tax increases...
2) How any of this has anything to do with fascism, something that could be far more readily invoked in the era of corporate control and diminished civil liberties that plagued this country for nearly a decade and isn't being reversed nearly quickly enough.
3) When will you tire of the false outrage you're pouring out now when you couldn't be bothered to utter a peep during the Bush era.

It's all pretty tired.

Thanks for joining up, taking on a username you couldn't ever hope to live up to, and visiting our forum just to trot out tired old talking points.

For reals. Thanksabunch.

ETA: I think it's hilarious that Lookout Kid and I both felt the need to reply with a 3-point outline....

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by CarolinaBredChicagoan

ETA: I think it's hilarious that Lookout Kid and I both felt the need to reply with a 3-point outline....

Yeah, but yours was much funnier.

[RichMonk]

Generally the quality of human interactions drops exponentially when taxes are mentioned. Taxes pay for services. You can a) keep your services w/o raising the appropriate taxes to pay for them (more debt) b) cut services (the best stuff to cut, sorry seniors, would be stuff like Medicare Part D), c) cut services and taxes (reducing services and not paying for what is left) or d)raise taxes to pay for services.

There are ideologies abound that prattle on about what services should be provided however, we should really be considering what we are doing here in this country. We are one of the few that does not pay taxes proportional to the services government provides. Something HAS to give.

[edsg25]

Isn't having a "tea party" the most absurd way to protest taxes? am I living on another planet now? have we really totally forgotten US history.

THE BOSTON TEA PARTY WAS NOT A PROTEST AGAINST TAXATION AND WAS NOT ANTI-TAXATION IN THE LEAST.

It was not about taxation but about representation, about having a voice on whether or how much the colonies were going to be taxed. It was also a protest against the idea of an overpowering multinational corporation of its day, the British East India Company, being given a tax break to undersell the colonial mom-and-pop tea distributors. It was about "we the people" and it was a movement very much from the left, not the right.

As has been noted, the tea parties were not "grass rooted", but "astro turf rooted", a top down rather than populist movement organized by the very powers that be who use their lobbyists to waste our tax money through contracts and through tax breaks.

Di you go to a tax party? Well, if you did, I sure hope you didn't use public roads or public transportation. I hope you weren't expecting polic protection if things went wrong. I hope you didn't hold your tea party in a public park. I hope you didn't have a sandwich at a restaurant near the tea party whose food is inspected. I hope you didn't go to a public school so you could even read about a tea party. And I hope you didn't get hit by a car along the way and had to be taken to the ER. All those things and far too many more to mention are paid for with your taxes.

In 1773, the Boston colonists knew exactly what they were protesting, knew exactly what tax breaks for the rich (East India Co) meant and what not having a voice in Parliament meant for how their own tax money would be spent (clue: it would be spent on the mother country, not her colonies, to a large extent). They were smart and saavy enough to know that taxation, in and of itself and no matter whether it, like everything, is subject to abuse, was a necessity.

Today, we don't get it. Sure our taxes are wasted on foreign wars and pork and other wastes. That's a problem of human nature and the ability to regulate it....it is not a problem with taxation but with absue.

Because the taxes rightfully spent...on an educated public that can funciton as good citizens and have the skills to compete, on protecting the environment, building and maintaining our roads, bridges, tunnels, regulating our air traffic, keeping our foods and drugs safe, protecting our borders (ok...poor example today, I realize), giving us police and fire protection, cleaning our lakes, rives, and streams, regulating our fianancial markets, etc., etc., are for the common good.

And when I pay my taxes to the government to do AS IT SHOULD, I'm not giving them a damned thing: I get back a good education, good jobs I have been educated to have, safe roads to drive on, and so much more that adds money to my pocket, not removes it.

No I'm against wars of emprire, waste, and pork projects that are not designed for the public good (many pork projects, for what it is worth, do serve the public good). I'm not, however, the least bit against taxation that serves me.

I am not filled with myself. I'm not a self-made man and I don't think any of you are. So much of what we are and what we are capable of doing comes from the commons...the things we share....the use of our tax money to serve "we the people", our money that we rightfully spend on ourselves.

[edsg25]

Originally Posted by CarolinaBredChicagoan

Jesus, buddy. If some of you blithering dittoheads didn't stumble upon the word "fascism" on some talk show, you'd be effectively mute.

Carolina, you're a better person than I am. I wouldn't have even known how to address the Tom Jeffersons of the world. Then again, I would be speechless in trying to counter the Anne Coulters, Rush Limbaughs, Glen Becks, Bill O'Reillys, and Sean Hannitys out there, too.

The percentage of people who support TomJeff's viewpoints is less than 30%. They represent, also, a Republican Party that will never be able to regain power unless it stops playing to TomJeff and his base (a pity since I am a Democrat who believes that one party rule stinks, does not want to see a permanant Democratic majority, and desires a strong, responsible voice of opposition).

TomJeff can be vocal. And loud. And in your face. And he can post over and over again. But there is one thing he cannot be in 2009: relevant.

TJ's assertions were so absurd they were unaddressable. Perhaps he may wish to look at how the real Thomas Jefferson saw things: his greatest accomplishment in his opinion was not being president of the United States, but in establishing UVa....a decidedly "taxing" issue for the good folks of Virginia for a very good cause.

[edsg25]

AN INVITATION TO TOM JEFFERSON: PLEASE RESPOND:

Tom, i've changed my mind. This is a public forum and engaging you and asking for give and take is a good thing.

I know what you are against: TAXES. But I don't have a clue what you are for. I do know that earmarks and pet projects make up less than 2% of the budget. I know that our huge war machine costs us billions in wasted tax money (you probably disagree with me on that one), but...what about the basics?

Where is it, Tom, that you want to cut taxes? I'll give you some choices:

1. education: would you prefer we didn't educate our youth to be competitive in the global marketplace. Would you rather invest in prisons (taxation there too) or in giving people the skills to stay out of prison?

2. police protection?

3. fire protection?

4. environmental protection?

5. food and drug safety?

6. protecting our borders?

7. preventing disease and its spread?

8. public roads, bridges, tunnels, street lights?

9. public parks?

10. public transportation that keeps our roads less crowded for you to drive on?

11. air traffic control?

12. regulation of the financial institutions entrusted to keep our $ safe?

13. Emergency rooms in hospitals?

14. Maintaining a court system?

15. Emergency relief (FEMA)

16. Postal service?

17. Armed forces for our defense?

Where would you do the cuts, Tom? Like you, I see waste and I see fraud and I see power poorly exercised. But mostly I see essential services that I could not do without and that enrich my life through taxation: I see money that I give to the government largely to spend on....well......ME.

So, please, Tom, tell me: we have had two Adams in the White House, a pair of Bushes. A couple of Roosevelts. A duo of Johnsons.

What if we had two Jeffersons: Thomas, of course, but you, Tom, the new Barrack Obama. Our President. The guy with the plan and the ear of Pelosi and Reid.

What would you proposal be to Congress, Tom? Should we dump all the government programs I enumerated above? Should we let the market (which has done us so well) correct itself when it nor the people can not put money into the system to get it going again?

We know what you are against, Tom. Please...tell us what you are FOR and how you would run this country by cutting taxes and still maintain the basic services every society needs to just survive....let alone thrieve.

PLEASE, TOM, TELL US.