Chicago's decline

[BRU67]

Originally Posted by Mathead

Yes, there are a numerous neighborhoods that have seen revitilization in recent years. Personally, I dont think the measure of a strong economy exists in how many boutiques, latte stands and bistros are in a city. If you can afford the heavy taxation and real estate then Chicago is for you.

Yes, Id rather have yuppies than gunfire also

Good point, there's a lot of ways to measure economic health. A strong service sector (botiques, latte stands and bistros) is not the end all and be all but it certainly is a good sign that a neighborhood is healthy -- just like boarded up store fronts are signs that it is not. I'd say that as a general rule, most gentrified neighborhoods have improved in the sense of lower crime, better schools, better city services, and more and better amenities as opposed to their pre-gentrification state.

Most arguments against gentrification are based on the premise that the increased property values push out the poor and elderly. Ok, that sounds like a grave injustice on first blush but think about it for a second. If you own property in a neighborhood, do you really want its value to be held down to, for all intents and purposes, subsidize the most marginally incomed members of the community? I may be more inclined to listen if there was some kind of even distribution -- where every community bears a share of the burden -- or if the presence of large numbers of low income persons enhanced my quality of life (which sadly it usually does not). I mean, if I live in, say, Pilsen, what incentive do I have to allow my house to stagnate in value so certain people can stay there while houses in other neighborhoods around me are going up 10-20% per year? It sounds like someone's still getting screwed in that situation -- me!

Perhaps for these reasons, I've found that most opponents of gentrification are either: a) renters; or, b) well-meaning affluent liberals who do not live in the area.

[Mathead]

Gentrification is not necessarily a bad thing. If I am a property owner of course I will see my taxes go up but my property is worth more. If I am in the position where I cannot afford it then I would have to sell more my property at a much higher profit than would have been possible had the neighborhood not been revitilized.

Often arguments against gentrification is a cultural disdain, cookie cutter now, lack of character etc. It's often done by people who rent and now can no longer afford to live in a hood that has become yuppified. I don't have much sympathy because renters cant have everything they want. A renter has no control of the property, it is one of the hazards of renting.

[EugeneBKLYN]

Originally Posted by j33

My brother tried that once in an old neighborhood I used to live in (even after I told him that the kids that played basketball down the street were no good) and ended up with a gun in his face and a threat against his life, it doesn't always work out 'chill' (I don't care if they were playing 'scare the white kid', it was an a*****e thing to do).

I do understand the frustration with gentrification, I've been chased out of a few neighborhoods because of it, and will probably be chased out of this neighborhood. But I'm quite cynical about what I often see is the young hipster loathing of the 'yuppie' and the romaticization of the 'gritty neighborhood'. I don't want to live in a cookie cutter subdivision, but I don't want to go to bed listening to gunfire either.

I can totally see your point. But these guys knew me. and I was about 10 years old at the time so everyone thought of me as a 'little brother'.

Oh well, everything that was even remotely like that back then is gone now, and when I go to that court in my old neighborhood these days, I see mostly white kids playing there
(As opposed to the horde of hispanics and blacks which congregated every afternoon in the 90s) lol.

By the way, I never heard a shot of gunfire in my life.
Most of the violence was in the form of bareknuckle streetfighting between crips, bloods, latin kings, etc.

You know that there are neighborhoods with working middle-class people?
It doesn't have to be either violence or yuppies.

I'm fortunate enough to live in that kind of a neighborhood right now here in Brooklyn.

Violent crimes are unheard of.

[bigjersey]

With the exception of the rich folk living in luxury highrises or brownstowns the "Yuppies" in Chicago are really just a cooler looking middle class. Chicago is less Pabst, more Stella, but still mostly a Miller town.

[Chi2NYC?]

Originally Posted by BRU67

Most arguments against gentrification are based on the premise that the increased property values push out the poor and elderly. Ok, that sounds like a grave injustice on first blush but think about it for a second. If you own property in a neighborhood, do you really want its value to be held down to, for all intents and purposes, subsidize the most marginally incomed members of the community? I may be more inclined to listen if there was some kind of even distribution -- where every community bears a share of the burden -- or if the presence of large numbers of low income persons enhanced my quality of life (which sadly it usually does not). I mean, if I live in, say, Pilsen, what incentive do I have to allow my house to stagnate in value so certain people can stay there while houses in other neighborhoods around me are going up 10-20% per year? It sounds like someone's still getting screwed in that situation -- me!

this is what i'm talking about. property values create the wrong incentives for getting people of diverse economic backgrounds (which in this country also implies diverse social backgrounds) to live together.

[BRU67]

Right, and property taxed based education funding makes it worse and helps ensure that the poor stay poor and our neighborhoods stay segregated. We have a very inefficient system indeed if you consider economic and racial diversity to be of high value. Of course, you have to take into account the slightly inconvenient fact that most people don't want to live in a diverse area. People will live in a generic home in a generic subdivision and subject themselves to a ludicrous commute in order to avoid it. That's a pretty strong force! I can't necessarily fault this because it is, after all, a market force. However, when the market starts creating severe urban sprawl, the destruction of farmland, and irreparable harm to our environment, I think it may be time to consider doing something on a policy level to address it.

[DefaultAlias]

Originally Posted by BRU67

Right, and property taxed based education funding makes it worse and helps ensure that the poor stay poor and our neighborhoods stay segregated. We have a very inefficient system indeed if you consider economic and racial diversity to be of high value. Of course, you have to take into account the slightly inconvenient fact that most people don't want to live in a diverse area. People will live in a generic home in a generic subdivision and subject themselves to a ludicrous commute in order to avoid it. That's a pretty strong force! I can't necessarily fault this because it is, after all, a market force. However, when the market starts creating severe urban sprawl, the destruction of farmland, and irreparable harm to our environment, I think it may be time to consider doing something on a policy level to address it.

Good point

[amy_cate]

Originally Posted by EugeneBKLYN

You know that there are neighborhoods with working middle-class people?
It doesn't have to be either violence or yuppies.

I'm fortunate enough to live in that kind of a neighborhood right now here in Brooklyn.

Violent crimes are unheard of.

where are you, bensonhurst? there are very very precious few working middle class neighborhoods left in brooklyn even fewer affordable AND safe. it's very daunting for a 30 something married middle class couple to have to move so far away from nightlife and have a long aggravating commute to work just to able to afford cost of living and still put some $ away for the future. it's such a tradeoff in nyc, and i'm personally fed up. yes, i'm disgruntled, er, moving out.