Can $90k buy you a comfortable life in Chicago? (Union: lawyers, to buy)

[coldwine]

Originally Posted by Irishtom29

Taken advantage of?

I've worked 7-12s for months at a time but by God they paid me for it. And I worked through many a lunch and they paid for that too. You want me you pay. Seems perfectly sensible to me.

Tell me, if you could get overtime pay would you not want it? Or is that figured into your salary? Do people take social status in lieu of money?

Originally Posted by Avengerfire

Yeah there is. They are called Suckers 9 times out of 10. Once in a while (1 out of 10?) someone gets lucky with their suckattude.

Btw-One punches Out first when going to lunch and In when coming back to work.

I had to seriously think about it, because I wanted to try and explain what repulses me so much with regards to unions and their mentality.

Ultimately I couldn't come up with a reason. I can't explain the drive to achieve any more than I could taste a color. I suppose if I hadn't been given any advantages in life, if I didn't have education or any chance to succeed on my own two feet... I suppose that under those conditions, I would demand the importance and respect I couldn't get from any other area. And I guess that if I were even more disposable than the next guy, I'd probably have hangups about that too. As it is, I would be extremely upset if I were to be held back and limited because other people don't like me being able to work more than they are willing to do. If I had to attach excess costs to my work because some archaic organization felt that it had the right to make decisions for me.

It comes across to me as extreme entitlement, because it is a demanded concession for little or no value. I was taught that I had to earn value and respect for doing often thankless things, but that the payoff wouldn't be in money or "over time pay", but rather in achievement and the respect of your peers. To that end I have (and would do again) worked very long hours for no overtime and terrible health benefits.

No one's guaranteed anything. You can work very hard and use education to gain a shot at the lottery. Or I suppose that you can make demands for a modicum of what those things could have brought you in return for offering nothing more than labor.

[Lookout Kid]

The irony of this thread is that two lawyers (or one lawyer and one lawyer-in-training) are the ones arguing against compensation for hours worked. This is the same profession that has elevated hourly billing to a religion, yet most firms pay employees a fixed annual salary. Putting class envy aside, you don't get a little upset watching the partners drive home to Winnetka in their CLS-Classes while you are pulling 16-hour days on a salary? Especially knowing your billing rate?

[coldwine]

Originally Posted by Lookout Kid

The irony of this thread is that two lawyers (or one lawyer and one lawyer-in-training) are the ones arguing against compensation for hours worked. This is the same profession that has elevated hourly billing to a religion, yet most firms pay employees a fixed annual salary. Putting class envy aside, you don't get a little upset watching the partners drive home to Winnetka in their CLS-Classes while you are pulling 16-hour days on a salary? Especially knowing your billing rate?

Even if I hadn't known that you were an architect, this right here is all that I would need to tell me that you've never even remotely dealt with the legal profession. I don't think anyone survives their first year at a big firm without seeing senior partners as something both pitiful and hateful Lastly, being a senior associate is about the sweetest gig there is. You don't have any of the risks of being a partner, no client development you have to kiss ass for, a high salary and some measure of bonus compensation based usually around aggregate hours billed. You can net $200k+ without any of the worries and troubles that accompany partnership.

And no, I don't. Of the Mercedes-Benz that I own, none are younger than 1989. I wouldn't touch a new model.

Also, I was a partner. An equity partner, even

My argument has everything to do with not being able to work extra for free. That's how I got ahead. That's how I made partner before 30. I did a lot of work I didn't bill. I did a lot of research, free favors and other things of that nature pro bono As for what it's worth, the legal profession regards the billable hour as dated and increasingly inapplicable. Flat fees are becoming the norm.

I do not need a labor organization telling me when I may work, for how much or for how long. I'll decide those things for myself, and to hell with anyone who thinks that they have a right to control my schedule.

[Avengerfire]

Hmmm.

[Drover]

At my last job, the owner had the following cars: A Mercedes G-wagon, a Porsche 911, a Hummer, and a Mercedes SL500. Did I get upset watching him drive those cars? No I didn't, because it's his capital on the line, not mine -- if the fit hits the shan, I only lose my job while he loses everything. Not to mention he was there 15 hours a day I and I was there for roughly half that time. I'm more risk-averse than he is and I place more value on my leisure time than he does. So I traded stability and fewer hours for a smaller paycheck than his, and we both went home satisfied. If there ever comes a day where I'm no longer willing to make that trade-off, I suppose I can start my own business and pay myself whatever I want.

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by coldwine

My argument has everything to do with not being able to work extra for free. That's how I got ahead. That's how I made partner before 30. I did a lot of work I didn't bill. I did a lot of research, free favors and other things of that nature pro bono As for what it's worth, the legal profession regards the billable hour as dated and increasingly inapplicable. Flat fees are becoming the norm.

My industry has moved this direction as well (away from time and materials billing and towards fixed fees), and it's killing profitability as the economy tanks since firms are now going out of their way to underprice the competition--and they're left with no mechanism to collect more money for additional work. We end up doing a lot of work for clients for free, and smart clients know how to squeeze out as much free work as possible. This stupid martyr work-a-holic philosophy is undermining my profession. People should be paid for the work they do. Period.

[coldwine]

Originally Posted by Lookout Kid

My industry has moved this direction as well (away from time and materials billing and towards fixed fees), and it's killing profitability as the economy tanks since firms are now going out of their way to underprice the competition--and they're left with no mechanism to collect more money for additional work. We end up doing a lot of work for clients for free, and smart clients know how to squeeze out as much free work as possible. This stupid martyr work-a-holic philosophy is undermining my profession. People should be paid for the work they do. Period.

The cost structures are radically different between our firms. I don't know for sure, but I can imagine that an architecture firm has some significant overhead, high variable costs and low profit margins. Just a guess, but I wouldn't be surprised if I were spot on.

The flat rate for a lawyer is a bit better. We can achieve an economy of scale such that some people really save, and others generally pay more. But things can't go on like they have-- no more partners billing $1,000/hr or senior associates cranking out $24,000 bond deals. That has to end. The industry as a whole must learn to do with fewer profits if it wants to work more.

[Avengerfire]

Originally Posted by Lookout Kid

...This stupid martyr work-a-holic philosophy is undermining my profession. People should be paid for the work they do. Period.

It is undermining many professions as well as just regular jobs.

I know an A-Hole at my job that has not taken any sick time or vacation time in the last 5 years. He does not even call in sick when he is contagious and really sick. The asshat comes in to work and spreads his sickness around.

In our position we get 3 weeks vacation a year and 1 week sick time.Once we reach 6 weeks vacation or 48 hours sick time we cap out for either. We cannot earn more until we use some of the paid time to bring us under cap.

So this douche has given the company back in essence the equivalent of 15 weeks vacation and 6 weeks sick time in the last 5 years.

How can someone compete with a moron like that?

[coldwine]

Originally Posted by Avengerfire

How can someone compete with a moron like that?

By being on the job more often, committing as much as he does and being as useful

I can't even remember what my sick time or vacation time were. I think it was fuzzy, somewhere along the lines of 2 weeks paid vacation a year and more than that for sick time (which I thought was just the touch of the macabre every legal job should have). When I went on vacation I had to log into work every day, call the office of the managing partner and the head of my practice group and answer emails. Emails turned into calls. Calls turned into open documents... which turned into revisions...

"Vacation" indeed. It was awesome when the law started requiring vacation time as an opportunity to snoop through a worker's activities to find fraud. Then I really got some relaxation time in.

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by coldwine

The cost structures are radically different between our firms. I don't know for sure, but I can imagine that an architecture firm has some significant overhead, high variable costs and low profit margins. Just a guess, but I wouldn't be surprised if I were spot on.

Well, this arugment is pointless in regard to a law firm who makes hefty profits and pays hefty salaries. Such a law firm may do a freebie for a client who is likely to bring a lot of work later, but they are always getting paid for their services in the end. They believe that services rendered warrant a comensurate fee. And while you may not bill every hour of every job, you have a salary that makes up for this fact. A typical union worker does not. You really can't compare your freebie to a guy on an assembly line working over his lunch hour for $25/hour.