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The problem with the Book of Enoch is that the oldest document found was in tattered ruins. Only few words were elligible from those tattered ruins as supposedly found in the Dead Sea scrolls.
The question here is, why did Biblical scholars allow it to go into disuse? Could it be that they were not regarded as scriptures? Could it be that thse were Jewish fables that turn from the truth and thus no scribes were dedicated to upkeeping them?
Then you have the Book of Enoch found, whole and available to read. Wow. How did that happen when there isn't a copy of the older documents surviving at the Dead Sea scrolls?
The one thought that many are missing here that defend the Book of Enoch is.... that there is nothing to say that poetic licensing has not taken place, copying from various parts of the already collected books of the Bible to give it an obvious legitamacy. I mean, really. Is it not strange that one singular book has more scriptural quotes than any other book? No reference of the book is given in the accepted Bible: just a reference to Enoch: the same reference given of Noah, a preacher of righteousness and yet where is the Book of Noah since he is a survivor of the Flood?
Then you have the responsibility of keeping up with the book of Enoch since Noah was supposedly the author of the Book. If so, then where are the books of Noah again? Being a survivor, his books would add weight to the Book of Enoch, but there is none. Of a survivor of a world wide catastrophe, you would think if he would keep the Book of Enoch updated from falling into disuse, then he would write his own books as a warning for all the descendents of his family since judgment would be coming on the earth again, but not by flood, but by fire.
And yet Genesis was written by Moses as inspired & led by the Holy Spirit to do so when Israel became a nation. Not Noah... as in the necessity of Noah writing anything would be moot since those that survive would tell their grand children, right? And we got over hundreds of noahic type flood stories permeating almost every culture of the world. If there were writings, how come Noah's children did not keep up with their copies?
Jesus Christ is the Good News.
UR does not need the Book of Enoch to be debunked. UR is a false teaching period. Those that defend UR cannot understand why God would judge eternal torment and punishment, as they also cannot comprehend that God knows whom wants to be saved from their sins from those that rather not come to God because they prefer the darkness.. their sins, than be reproved of them.
There are enough scriptures in the accepted Bible to debunk UR: those that believe in UR are just not seeing it because they do not want to....as if hell and the lake of fire were created for nothing in the same way mankind build prisons and even dishes out life sentences as well as the death penalty.
Could it be that thse were Jewish fables that turn from the truth and thus no scribes were dedicated to upkeeping them?
UR does not need the Book of Enoch to be debunked. UR is a false teaching period. Those that defend UR cannot understand why God would judge eternal torment and punishment,
There are enough scriptures in the accepted Bible to debunk UR:
Well, at least you figured out that Enoch was part of the Jewish fables, but you might want to check out where the idea of eternal torment came from, and why it is that pagan Christianity brought that into their religion.
There are enough scriptures in the BIBLE to refute traditional Christianity that it blows EVERYTHING else on this planet out of the water!
The problem with the Book of Enoch is that the oldest document found was in tattered ruins. Only few words were elligible from those tattered ruins as supposedly found in the Dead Sea scrolls.
Enoch has never been lost. Just banned in the west. Enoch was always Sacred Scripture to the Patriarchs, and the Jews who received the Gospel in Ethiopia in the beginning of the NT Church kept it in their "Collection of Books" =Bible
There are no original manuscripts for the OT or NT, nor Enoch. The copies of Enoch in the DSS are copies of copies of copies... and the earliest dates for the materials used for the DSS manuscripts is third century BC. You cannot find a complete collection of OT books dating earlier than the 14th century, or something like that. In the DSS collections there is a complete book of Isaiah dating third century BC, but other than that, there are not many complete copies of anything earlier. Enoch has been kept as Scripture by the Ethiopian Church, from the beginning of the NT Church, because they already had it, and they did not follow Rome and ban it.
Well, at least you figured out that Enoch was part of the Jewish fables, but you might want to check out where the idea of eternal torment came from, and why it is that pagan Christianity brought that into their religion.
You have no proof of that. That is like the Catholic article being cited as admitting that the RCC changed documents to fit their seven day creation in Genesis, and yet in order for them to do that, they have to change the whole Bible, OT and NT. And if they did that, they would remove or change all scriptures to support catholicism and have each of the seven church in Revelation to "follow the Church of St Peter at Rome and you will never go wrong", but the RCC did not do that and so they did not do the changes in Genesis either. The Dead Sea scrolls on Genesis ought to debunk that notion in comparison.
And so it is with pagan christianity changing the Bible. They would have changed everything then, but UR resort to quoting out of context in not following the message in the chapter to spout this false teaching.
Quote:
There are enough scriptures in the BIBLE to refute traditional Christianity that it blows EVERYTHING else on this planet out of the water!
Zeroing in on a verse and not reading the chapter clearly does not put the meaning of the verse in view that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ.
You will not find this verse:
"What must I do to be saved?"
"Have you not been listening?!! Nothing!! You are saved!!! Jesus died for you and paid your penalty for the wages of your sins!!"
"I do not believe you."
"That does not matter if you believe or not because God has done it."
"Then why are you bothering telling people this?"
"uhh... ummm.... "
"Why is it important for people to know about this?"
"Uuuhh... ummm...."
"Why are you bothering me with this? I got things to do."
And so if the Good News was not preached, and people were saved anyway, then christianity would not even be preached nor heard. The disciples died for sharing the Good News. Others have too. Seems an awful lot of trouble for nothing if UR is true.
Hence... UR is not true. UR teaching is more pagan christianity than ET teaching because it shows why the Good News is the Good News.
ET has to exist if death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels in order for there to be any victory in Christ Jesus: but the problem here is... that is not the only ones being cast into the lake of fire: there are thoe that received the mark of the beast... and other sinners that believe not on the Son of God.
If no man can come to the Son unless the Father draws him ( John 6:44), and yet all have heard the report and not all believe: then if they die in unbelief and in their sins: it is because God knew they prefer the darkness rather than come to the light. John 3:14-21
Romans 10: 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
You have no proof of that. That is like the Catholic article being cited as admitting that the RCC changed documents to fit their seven day creation in Genesis, and yet in order for them to do that, they have to change the whole Bible, OT and NT. And if they did that, they would remove or change all scriptures to support catholicism and have each of the seven church in Revelation to "follow the Church of St Peter at Rome and you will never go wrong", but the RCC did not do that and so they did not do the changes in Genesis either. The Dead Sea scrolls on Genesis ought to debunk that notion in comparison.
And so it is with pagan christianity changing the Bible. They would have changed everything then, but UR resort to quoting out of context in not following the message in the chapter to spout this false teaching.
Zeroing in on a verse and not reading the chapter clearly does not put the meaning of the verse in view that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ.
You will not find this verse:
"What must I do to be saved?"
"Have you not been listening?!! Nothing!! You are saved!!! Jesus died for you and paid your penalty for the wages of your sins!!"
"I do not believe you."
"That does not matter if you believe or not because God has done it."
"Then why are you bothering telling people this?"
"uhh... ummm.... "
"Why is it important for people to know about this?"
"Uuuhh... ummm...."
"Why are you bothering me with this? I got things to do."
And so if the Good News was not preached, and people were saved anyway, then christianity would not even be preached nor heard. The disciples died for sharing the Good News. Others have too. Seems an awful lot of trouble for nothing if UR is true.
Hence... UR is not true. UR teaching is more pagan christianity than ET teaching because it shows why the Good News is the Good News.
ET has to exist if death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels in order for there to be any victory in Christ Jesus: but the problem here is... that is not the only ones being cast into the lake of fire: there are thoe that received the mark of the beast... and other sinners that believe not on the Son of God.
If no man can come to the Son unless the Father draws him ( John 6:44), and yet all have heard the report and not all believe: then if they die in unbelief and in their sins: it is because God knew they prefer the darkness rather than come to the light. John 3:14-21
Romans 10: 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Please kindly refer to my thread on Christianity and Zoroastrianism.
Why would you make the claim that Enoch is a "Jewish" book?
Enoch was not a Jew. Enoch wrote his books for all generations who would descend from him, through his seed -Noah.
Enoch is not about the Torah, nor is Enoch about Jerusalem.
Why would you make the claim that Enoch is a "Jewish" book?
Enoch was not a Jew. Enoch wrote his books for all generations who would descend from him, through his seed -Noah.
Enoch is not about the Torah, nor is Enoch about Jerusalem.
I don't really care if Enoch was Jewish or not. That wasn't my point. My point has to do with Jewish fables, and the Jews at one time cherished this book.
The Muslims also respect Enoch (Idris). Allah has praise for Enoch (Idris) (PBUH)
Here are 2 verses from the Qur'an, which quotes Enoch (they refer to him as Idris), also.
Surah 19:56-57. AND CALL to mind, through this divine writ, Idris. Behold, he was a man of truth, a prophet, whom We exalted onto a lofty station.
Surah 21:85. AND [remember] Isma'il and Idris, and every one who [like them] has pledged himself [unto God]. They all were among those who are patient in adversity, and so We admitted them unto Our grace: behold, they were among the righteous!
Last edited by herefornow; 06-23-2010 at 07:57 PM..
I don't really care if Enoch was Jewish or not. That wasn't my point. My point has to do with Jewish fables, and the Jews at one time cherished this book.
Jesus, Paul, John, Jude, James, Barnabas, Abraham, and Peter certainly did, as did the Jews who became born again in Christ, in Ethiopia, who kept it in their collection of books.
In fact, the ancient Egyptians kept it in their "collection of books", but when they became ungodly, like Paul said all nations did, in Romans 1, they changed the truth into a lie. But Jesus assures us that He is indeed "The Amen", in Revelation 3; the same "Amen" whom Enoch revealed, hidden, who was to be revealed, and whom the ancient Egyptians worshiped in truth, after Abraham taught them from the Book of Enoch.
And FYI, you are quoting from other pseudo Enoch's in the rest of your post, not from Ethiopian Enoch, which is the same Enoch that is in the DSS collections, minus the Son of Man parables -which may be there yet, but which can be proved authentic from the rest of 1 Enoch's correlation with that portion.
In no way is Enoch "Jewish", nor is it a fable. You err and you err on purpose, and in ignorance, not caring whether it is Truth from God or not.
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